Replies to This Discussion

DeveloperPermalink Reply by Adam Rivera on December 26, 2012 at 11:06am

All defects in the software are logged here: http://code.google.com/p/arducopter/issues/list

That can be viewed by anyone at anytime. Defects are not hidden from the public. There is a repository for them at the above link so that developers can work on them and keep track of the progress.

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Permalink Reply by Drone Savant on December 26, 2012 at 11:10am

"Defects are not hidden from the public" - fair point... they are also not highlighted in most cases. 

to be fair I said "hide" based on this wording:  "reserved only for development team...and now it's time that people like you see this."

I did search the issues list for "i term" and "iterm" btw and didn't find anything that would indicate that there was an issue. Do you by chance have a link to the issue that was created for this *bug*? 

http://code.google.com/p/arducopter/issues/list?can=1&q=iterm&a...

http://code.google.com/p/arducopter/issues/list?can=1&q=i+term&...

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DeveloperPermalink Reply by Adam Rivera on December 26, 2012 at 11:17am

The awesome thing about open source software is that you did not pay for it. The devs put in a TON of hours in return for nothing. That being said, it is really up to the user to be aware that this software is free to use and comes with no warranty. I would definitely suggest browsing the defect list if it is something that interests you. There are minor defects, feature requests, and occasionally major defects.

I don't believe the developers would ever hold back a potentially dangerous defect if it was discovered and verified. You also have to understand that the developers and testers are from all over the world operating on different time zones and many speak english as a second language. So by the time the whole dev list hears about a major bug, verifies its a defect in the code and then publishes something about it, it may seem like a long time. Users in the community are also not only welcome to but encouraged to post about any issues so that they can be fixed and we can all benefit from it.

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DeveloperPermalink Reply by Adam Rivera on December 26, 2012 at 11:20am

Also, I think something that you put forth in your post conveys a misconception: "...per the development staff..." The developers are not staff and are not paid.

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Permalink Reply by Drone Savant on December 26, 2012 at 11:30am

What about my wording implied that developers are paid or that I am conveying a misconception? I bought my gear from store.diydrones.com I click the help link http://store.diydrones.com/aboutus.asp it says come here. "Product support: We encourage customers to use the DIY Drones forums (diydrones.com/forum) for technical support and questions..."

When you come here to ask questions the mantra has ALWAYS been and at times blatantly stated if you want to be supported, run the latest code. Not sure why this has you on the defense about being paid vs. not... and as I have covered in the past *SOME* developers are paid, but that isn't what I am talking about here. SOME developers ARE staff as well. =] syllogism rocks!

I've participated in my fair share of multi-rotor forums... I am aware of how potential issues can be handled and how they can propagate across time zones and continents. =] I was really only saying that I was surprised to not have seen some *warning* chatter on this.

It is clear that this was kicked around in private for about a month before the video was released to the public... Marco blatantly says it "now it's time that people like you see this."

"potentially dangerous defect if it was discovered and verified." I agree... this however doesn't say much about the period of time between discovery and verification. End user is likely in the dark even if verification is back burnered. 

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DeveloperPermalink Reply by Adam Rivera on December 26, 2012 at 1:34pm

You may be right that some devs are paid now. I have been out of the dev circuit for a while now. Either way it doesn't really matter to me. I am happy to work on stuff for free!

 

I guess my point is just that this software project is really a community effort. Marco is not obligated to discuss the issues he sees with the broader community although it is excellent when he does (often). He is just part of a volunteer group of testers that are self-organized. Perhaps you could head a separate testing effort that would be as transparent as you see fit? Otherwise if you just want to monitor the issues in real-time, just visit the link I forwarded. Perhaps this software/hardware solution is not for you, but there are a lot of people who like to grow with this solution and contribute in a constructive way.

 

Either way, I hope your experience improves!

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Drone Savant on December 26, 2012 at 1:44pm

Thanks for the response, I appreciate it. You are right I do want to monitor things as best I can, not necessarily in real time. I also hope that new users or people picking things up off the shelf after months of sitting can find things a bit easier as well. From the perspective of someone that does not have all the time in the world to hunt issues down it isn't always as simple as "if you just want to monitor the issues in real-time, just visit the link I forwarded". 

Using this one specifically as an example I *still* don't have a link to an issue or a patch or any other detail that surrounds this incident. I legitimately looked. I did indeed start with your link. Maybe I am using incorrect search terms: 

http://code.google.com/p/arducopter/issues/list?can=1&q=i+term&...

http://code.google.com/p/arducopter/issues/list?can=1&q=iterm&a...

I would assume it was a High priority Defect at some point? 

http://code.google.com/p/arducopter/issues/list?can=1&q=priorit...

"Either way, I hope your experience improves!"

Thanks brother... I can appreciate that. 

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Permalink Reply by Michael Pursifull on December 26, 2012 at 1:45pm

Adam: I'll share the same advice with you that I too often ignore myself. Don't feed the troll. Kevin/Drone Savant knows his agenda. I just wish that agenda would change, because he has a lot to offer, if he would simply decide to be constructive.

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Permalink Reply by Drone Savant on December 26, 2012 at 2:00pm

Mike in this instance... as much as I wish I was JUST trying to be a jerk. I'm not. I really was gonna fly my ArduCopter today. Instead I just went out and flew my DJI Naza w/ GPS in a snow storm quite happily, without fear. This morning my tune was ahh what the heck lets strap an ArduPilot to this hexa and take it out. 

I randomly stumble upon something that I had not heard about, tried hard to dig up info and became appalled at the lack of data on it. Seeing that chopper nearly drill that crowd of six was eye opening. 

It boils down to trust. So you are right... I do have an agenda. I want to trust this gear. That should not be to much to ask regardless of whom is paid to develop it, or whom sells it, maintains the forum, whatever. Being able to trust this 3drobotics / diydrones hardware software combo is a simple request. It is hard to honor right now. 

Throw me a bone... don't feed my trolling shut me up, drop me a .diff link to a patch. Hook a brotha up with a link to an issue in the code.google.com interface, whatever. Attacking my tone really doesn't make me trust this codebase any more so than I did before I saw Marco's video this morning. 

It should be really simple to say:

1) Here is how we tracked the bug down. 

2) here is the .diff from where we fixed it.

3) Here is how we triaged the testing

4) We now have a test in the tree to make sure there are no future regressions

5) You *should* trust the latest code because we've added the following awesome sauce and made efforts to prevent regression. 

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Permalink Reply by Michael Pursifull on December 26, 2012 at 12:57pm

Yes, very cleverly hidden in plain sight, expertly done in real time as the issues are being discovered and fixed. Perhaps some issues might be presented and organized better. You have a lot of energy, why don't you do it?

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Permalink Reply by Drone Savant on December 26, 2012 at 1:10pm

"Perhaps some issues might be presented and organized better...You have a lot of energy, why don't you do it?" - I'm not the man with the $10,000 forum upgrade in tow, nor is this MY baby... if I were you can rest assured things would be better organized. 

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Permalink Reply by Michael Pursifull on December 26, 2012 at 1:34pm

Sorry, I don't quite understand. You have a free, open membership, free access to the source code, revision control history, public discussion, hundreds of thousands of man-hours of free developer time, a free forum, and I realize its "not [your] baby" and you have identified an issue you are certain you could address, namely organizing and presenting per-version bugs, but rather than contribute in a constructive way, you'd rather kick the baby because you don't feel respected because you have a long history of contensious and argumentative interactions?

You've sometimes had valid concerns, but those have been devalued by your own behavior. And there are times when some of the volunteer moderators have shown too much reflexively defensive cult of personality opposition to your curt, tense argumentative writing style. But really, if you don't want to help, then what exactly is your purpose?

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