heavy octo for semi-pro and pro video gear - with arducopter

hey,

is there anyone on forum who have built (or bought) copter for carrying heavy-weight (3+kg) video gear and is using arducopter board to control it? Duran DeV is running droidworx AD8HL and i am trying to contact him to find out about his setup, but anyone else?


would anyone be interested in kind of .. "assisting the build", remotely?

what i need is advise on

- frame (so far looking at droidworx skyjib/AD8HLE, or cinestar 8?)

- motors for that frame (AXI?)

- powerboard (or esc?)

- props (size and manufacturer? i've seen more than one prop braking on my friend's MK, it's really f..ng scary when it happens 30m above the sea)

- i would really like to use arducopter instead of MK - small, compact and developing project (and cheaper, too) + strong engineering community

camera we are aiming towards is fs-100, which (with reasonable lens and battery) weights about 2,5kg..
camera gimbal - av200, no 360pan (at least, not yet).
flight time - 10 minutes in the air in reasonably chill weather would be great..

what did i miss?

budget for frame+motors+powerboards/esc+props should stay within .. ideally 3k€, and i'm located in europe (so when ordering something from USA/Asia i will have to add VAT 20% + custom fees, another 5-10%)

did i miss something? fpv gear i have, tx/rx will probably be spektrum dx8, and i can find good specialists in soldering/electronics (not that i would like to spend too much time in that area)

RTF packages on kopterworx (and anywhere else) are always running MK, usually include lots of stuff i don't need and are above my budget..

example calculation (based on kopterworx.com pricing):
frame: 1x cinestar 8 @ 1750€
motors: 9x kw4pro @ 80€
props: 5x 12x4,5 cf @ 79€/pair (no sure size is enough, but for price indication should be good, i suppose)
powerboard: 2x herkules II power board pro @ 499€

total is 3120 (tax deducted)..

it feels somewhat.. scary? to put tiny (reasonably cheap) arducopter in control of gear with flying cost a bit less than 10k€.. maybe what i need is a bit of .. confidence? :)

thanks in advance,
jk
p.s. in my fleet i have gaui330x to carry gopro, custom-built aluminium hexa (now dead due to frame failure) with arducopter, foxtech carbon hexa frame with arducopter, couple of light planes for fpv (hk epp fpv sub-2m wingspan etc), 450sized and micro heli's.. so i am not a complete beginner - but of course very far from being a professional..

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@Tomas

Vibration dampers and clever designs to stop HD Jello are only blankets to cover-up the symptoms. Have you ever sat on a bus and wondered why the windows buzz when the bus is idling? Have you ever played a guitar and gotten extra-high notes out of a string? Have you ever had a model helicopter that would not quit with bad vibrations no matter what new parts you fitted or how many times you balanced the blades? Yes, balanced motors and props are everything but what if something is designed to be acoustically de-tuned?  It happens to be the right length and distance away from the motors, the correct thickness of material is used for the motor rpms that the camera is on a node, where standing-waves cancel. My CAD does acoustic analysis. But the proof's in the pudding and I will be getting some Aerial Videos made end of January!

@Paul
CarbonCore is in NO WAY associated with RC-Carbon/Coptersky or any other trading names they have used. They are a shambles and disrespectful to their customers. They sell early versions of my designs with all their inconsistent modifications and defects after my first potential manufacturer turned out to be a middle-man and passed them around. I was stocking the frames from Latvia but the lack of quality and time I spent de-burring parts made me sick. Not to mention it took them 8 months to deliver 5600 USD of stock. I am now wondering if this is because they are just a retailer and get the frames from mainland china which is why they are always out of stock and fail to deliver. No two frames I ever received from them were the same - there were always pointless changes and everything looked very hand-made. Not to mention heavily pitted carbon with dry-patchy areas and with a rough finish on one side.

I have so little time this month to finalize part layouts and setup machine files that the MegaRadius will be built and on You Tube by mid-January. Unlike the MiniRadius that had a couple AutoCAD previews, the MegaRadius is being fast-tracked. The Mega is not a V2 of the Mini, it's not a jumbo V2, it's a Radius camera mount ;)

Did anyone also notice that rccarbon/coptersky plagaurized all the multicopter content - photographs watermakred with CarbonCore, written content including links to other parts of my website to build thier new-look webshop? (This is after months of waiting for a dealer's spares pricelist for which I wrote a large database with a photogrpah of every spare on a carbon cloth background, and of months of them telling me they were going to concentrate on manufacturing and stop retailing)...
Their website has been "under maintenance" for about a week now...

CarbonCore (Myself)) has now revised all the frames so there are consistent features throughout the range, 90% of parts are cross-compatible with each type of multicopter within the range. So for example, if you have a Y6, many of the parts double as spares for a later multicopter you may get, for example an Octo. CarbonCore frames are backwards compatible with the older designs. All Multicopters 650mm and above have frames made from 1.5mm plate.  The new landing gear is much lighter and stiffer as it interlocks through the frame plates. The frame plates are now spaced at 23mm, instead of 17mm, adding a lot more resistance to bending (Like an I-Beam). High quality, Threaded glass-filled nylon spacers are currently being used (I have tried and cannot pull the threads out of these) this allows for short, lightweight bolts to be used throughout. So no long bolts with nuts. This allows the upper frame plate to be easily removed without the multicopter falling to bits!

The frames are now a pleasure to build – I built a SmallSpy on under 30 minutes and assembled an X4 frame in about 45 minutes with tea breaks :) I was able to assemble the 3 Multicopters and the camera mount in my You Tube video in one evening :)

CarbonCore Multicopters and carbon products are now made by a local manufacturer in Yorkshire UK, who makes composite car parts. The Carbon Fibre Plate is very hard & dense, has a slight pattern to the gel finish but has no defects whatsoever and a very high gloss finish on both sides. And when I ask for tolerances so my designs slot together easily and without rattling, they deliver what I ask for.

If it’s in-stock on my website you can purchase the item and it will be dispatched the next day. If it’s shown as out of stock, the website won’t let you buy it. Simples

thanks for clearing that up. must of taken some time to write that up :) - in the meantime ill keep up with your site for the new MKII gimbal. cheers.

Oi CarbonCore!

Nice explanation of structural resonance - never came across any manufacturer taking THAT into account!

Just for the general info of the thread followers:

Structures (Buildings, Guitars, Airframes) have a key frequency set which is proportional with their

composite materials, dimensions and combination. Hit that frequency and the whole structure will

vibrate like mad  (same reason supports "Shower Acoustics").

Aluminum and Carbon tube booms are just like small tubular bells (Oldfield anyone?),

while the CarbonCore approach creates structures that tend to act like "wave breakers",

especially along the booms which are also natural "vibration amplifiers" for frequencies

generated by the motors (Force X Distance...).

@Carbon: You got me intrigued - What CAD are you using, CATIA?

Cheers -

Gil

I have Siemens Software.

Not sure about wavebreakers - making things stronger or tying them down does not make the vibration go away. In RC Helis when you make something too stong or rigid something else just breaks for no apparent reason (vibration damage).

Tail booms and motor arms do not amplify the vibration, they may amplify the amplitude (the peak-to-peak size of the wave) but the frequency will change and the energy is absorbed and lost as sound and heat.

And we don't want noisey airframes.

Look at Non-Newtonian Fluid Flow on a Speaker Cone on You Tube - You may say the entire "structure vibrates like mad" however some of it goes bonkers (anti-nodes) and some of it actually stays still (nodes).

For multicopters we want the motors, FCB and camera on nodes, the rest can shake all it wants!

Good RC Heli manufacturers will look into resonance and design accordingly but ever had a cloned heli thats an odd size that you could never tune the gyro and get the tail to lock? The cheap gyro wasn't the problem.

Force times distance is moments, or turning force - not a lot to do with vibration.
Resonance is when a driving frequency like a motor or prop matches the tuned frequency of a structure. So make the structure with some other tuned frequency. Resonance is very destructive: HD Jello, mystery missing bolts, dry solder joints, drift in GPS heading hold, random unexplained brown-out / crash: solved.

Still glue your helicopters and multicopters together - use loctite or super glue on the bolts!

I think I'm going with the T-Motor 2826-10 380Kv with 13 x 4 props on 6S for the CarbonCore Octocopter.

I found the Photoship one MKTR pro camera mount to be great! 2 axis + built in landing gear.

All for half the price of the Photohigher one. Around $500.

Also I went with the MK Okto XL frame. Turnigy G10 810Kv motors... etc... :)

http://myworld.ebay.de/cnc-kreativ - these seem pretty. but i've got no luck, he just does not respond to my email or ebay messages.. on ebay site he says he'll be only shipping to germany.. maybe someone else got better luck contacting him?

this would be direct link to gimbals:
http://stores.ebay.de/cnc-kreativ-de/Mikrokopter-/_i.html?_fsub=242...

Those Gimbals / Camera Mounts are direct drive so unless they robot servos they have limited rotation.
And direct drive servo tilt is not a great way to get the best resolution or precise motion for your stabilization. ans 200 EUR? You'd have to pay that just for the servos to get thi stype fo camea mount to work smoothly withotu the servos burning out. I've read several reports of the GoPro and Jumbo Pro camera moutns burning servos. Why I came up with my configuration.

I can't wait to share my new MegaRadius camera moutn with you but I'm too busy with the machine files and cutter stuff to make any screenshots. The first you'll see of it will be a You Tube video soon after January 15th. That's for the size of camera in those links.

Have a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

btw cnc-kreativ uses belt-driven, not direct.. if i get the terminology right

Hey Jaan, Duran here :) Sorry for the delay just been sooo busy!

We are in the final stages of launching our very own film/cinema/production drones called "SteadiDrone" the website should go live early Feb and our first batch of system as well around that time. We are a media production company and have been flying our DW AD8 HL + AV200-360 mount for a while now, it's a great system but has it's issues, which we have tried to learn from and improve on our frame, which we've designed from the ground up.

We've flown well over 1000 flights using the Arducopter platform with not a SIGNLE issue, we are currently running a tweaked version of .49 but will start testing 2.1 as well. We started with MK and on our first real test flight had it flip and smashed the entire stack, so I thought there must be a better/morer affordable system our there, which is when I came across Arducopter, we we LOVE! It costs the least, works, with our testing, jobs and flying the best, and it's easy to setup, use and tweak the code.

Our new SteadiDrone systems (Already sold a few) will feature:

Quick Release motor arms with unique brushless motors not used on any other brand of multirotors (660w each!)
Full carbon fibre + moulded airframe, hex/octo configurations
Full 360 pan, tilt and roll camer mount including stand alone stabilization system
Wireless Video system + independant control|
Payloads from 2-8kg (Canon 5DII, Red Epic, Scarlet etc)
and much more.

Our main aim is to provide affordable yet highly reliable and effective systems for the photo/video/film industry with cheap spare parts, and still keeping it open with the use of Arducopter, or other boards if required, but we LOVE ardu.

Hope this helps, pop me an email for more info, any time.

Regards

Duran

Hi Jaan,

Your SmallSpy 500mm Quadrocopter is being posted tomorrow ;)
All the larger Multicopter frames are the same quality and the motor arms are a lot lighter and stiffer for thier size than the aluminium on the SmallSpy.
All the CarbonCore Multicopters have foldable amrs.
The Multicopter Spares Category has been completed today and the Mega Radius is now in analysis in CAD.

http://shop.carboncore.co.uk/MultiCopter-Spares

My Camera Mounts save weight and cost by using friction drives, allowing the servos to rev freely giving the most power for the lest effort. The drives are also supported on bearings at each end so there's no sideays load on the servos, unlike a gear or belt drive.

@Duran DeV 660W motors? Motor power is closely linked to the motor weight. And the Motor weight is a very large proportion of the AUW. The most power does not give the most power-to-weight...

Building and filming the Octo in January :)

currently using MK 3638 motors (350w max) which are around 125g with cables prop etc, our new motors are 140g at 660w max power ;)

We've done the math.

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