Hi,

could you tell me who is personally, legally accountable in case of drone crash case reported to law enforcement officers, FAA due to known bugs, flaws in Pixhawk flight controller ?

I have followed tens of discussions on this and other forums and questions asked by hobbyists are responded by hobbyists either.

There is no interest on the side of Pixhawk developer/s  from Switzerland

to take active part in such discussions.

The last discussion at DIYDrones

and history from

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/drones-discuss/iZmeopHOLGM/discussion

are good examples how hobbyists try to response to problems asked by hobbyists and just fail, since such questions should be responded by genuine

developer/s of Pixhawk originating from the Switzerland.

GPS is used...

No GPS isn't used...

I am surprised to learn GPS is used..

I have been surprised ..

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Replies to This Discussion

David shares wise counsel 

I had a good laugh at this but I would like to provide a serious answer.

Any drone you fly should be flown as if it can fall out of the sky at any time. Regulations in most countries are based on that principle. It doesn't matter what autopilot or manufacture you are using.

I personally fly with a kill switch so I can terminate my flight at any time. To ensure safe operation I simply need to stay within line of sight and not fly over people or property that could be damaged if I pull the kill switch.  This simple principle reduces the likelihood that I will loose RC link and ensures I can prevent the copter damaging anything. I also ensure all my other safety features are set up correctly and tested to cover the low probability the simple principle above doesn't work.

I recently did a RPA operators licence course (drone licence course) that was based on DJI Phantom 3's. During the course, each day we had 1 fly away or serious control loss that could not be attributed to pilot error. Unfortunately the logs available with the Phantom 3 make it hard to work out what went wrong. In the end both of the phantoms were unoperational and not going to fly again. I suspect most of these issues were due to poor GPS however at least one of them was a complete loss of control.

So the simple answer is YOU are responsible for YOUR actions. You must ensure you minimise the risk of crashes and if your copter crashes it does so in a safe place. You can easily do this by limiting where you fly and ensuring you have the appropriate safety measures in place to terminate your flight if needed. The level of risk you accept is up to you.

Unfortunately I have absolutely no idea what Switzerland has to do with any of this.

Darius you are not liked by soo many members of this community. What is your response ? Are you going to do anything about it ? You are burying yourself deeper and deeper. Your reputation is very bad. 

Darius;

             This is our groups hobby.we enjoy DIY and We want to have fun flying our Drones.

Can You please stop the negativity and just start having fun in our hobby.

Thank You..

Why ask the question in the first place since you seem to have all the answers already?

@Erik,

I am interested to implement Personal Drone Certification Standard.

If personal drone manufactured by DJI, so certified by DJI as aircraft to meet all aircraft standards.

If assembled by DIY, so assembled from certified parts.

Parts certified by every single manufacturer of drone parts.

Since many drone parts like motors, ESC, battery, BEC .... may find use and application in non-drone products, I would like manufacturers of such parts to declare, they are fit for drones, have been pretested to operate safely, if installed in DIY drone (aircraft).

Exactly to save jail term in few cases of third party personal injuries due to drone crash piloted correctly by a hobbyist, if the drone has been assembled from "Drone Certified" marked parts, assembled correctly according to attached manual/s and piloted safely, under FAA standards

and the crash is due to failure, burn out in drone part, drone sensor,  drone controller or drone firmware code.

It may take me few days, weeks or months to have manufacturers of drone parts to implement

"Drone Certified" Mark and Standard globe-wide, since no regional restrictions exist.

Self certification procedure by manufacturers of drone parts looks to

be a welcome standard under new personal drone registration legislation enacted and implemented by FAA,

to let hobbyists and give them a chance and an apportunity to select and purchase

"Drone Certified" parts only for use to build his/her DIY safe drone.

"Drone Certified" Mark and Standard can be implemented easily by first manufacturer of drone parts, second, third,  today or tomorrow,

as a guidance to DIY drone hobbyists to select and purchase

"Drone Certified" marked parts, tested to meet safe personal drone (aircraft)

operation standards set by FAA.

So I still don't have many answers yet.

Just let me know your opinion about

"Drone Certified"  Mark and Standard for drone parts

I think you don't have a clue or a snow ball's chance.  What you are talking about is equivalent to the US Navy's SubSafe Program, and after reading through some of your previous posts it is obvious to me that you do not have the technical knowledge to pull this off.

Secondly, NO ONE is going to pay you to "certify" something that does not require any formal governmental certification. 

To use a colloquialism that is popular with raccoon hunters, "Sorry to say, but that dog just don't hunt..."

 

I worked on SAE J1939 from implementing the CAN bus on Motorola 68HC11 to building  prototype sprayery with 6 network node uses  a very small sub set of J1939 like commands that was used to make a commercial machine. When we tried to introduce wireless links the error rate was too high to use in a determinate system that depended on each command being acted on. Getting it done in a timely manner took a special network chip on every CPU. Every process of any consequence took its own CPU. The sprayer read 4 single pixel camera viewing an area 50 mm long x 1 meter wide that with its own CPU that sent the data through an interface CPU to a main CPU that tracked the rated of speed calculated the amount of product to spray on each 1 m x m area   could set 4 spray nozzles a 1 of 16 rates and trigger them on when over the area. 

When we tried to use radio links for a small part of this  it fail every times due to too many lost packets.

I also built several  vehicle tracking systems one parameter in each and every messages the time stamp so every node knew how old the message was by comparing it the clock form their own GPS. Some messages were sent 20 or 30 times before the were acknowledged.   Radio contort should have better connectivity that than UDP packet radio, but noise, multi-path, etc will cause signal loss. 

The most reliable drone missions will be preplanned and flown on auto pilot with pilot oversight. 

The operating pilot is responsible for the whole ball of wax. He is the one that decides if the drone is safe to fly. If the mission is correct and safe. The pilot is the one that decides when to quit. 

Looking a causes for airplane accidents: http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm Only weather and mechanical failure take any fault off pilot error. Considering the close proximity of drone and the pilots it's very hard for the weather to damage a plane before the pilot can get it out of the air. Pilots are very often the sole people working on their drones turning mechanical failures into mostly pilot error.

No matter how well the drone is certified when the drone the ground or the the Cadillac the guy at the stick is likely going to get stuck,

Well, you are personally accountable for all actions you do.

The question is, if you live in country with more lawyers than engineers, where everybody is trying to blame somebody else, or if you live in a sensible country.

With drones,planes etc, you are the pilot. You must be in control at any time. So if you use a computer to help you, it is still your responsibility. I have yet to see software vendors like Microsoft, Oracle, Apple etc being held responsible for actions that are part bad judgement, and part software error. Sounless the software was written with malicious purposes, I doubt you can blame the software supplier for anything. So the ArduPilot code is home free.

If you bought a complete system, you might have a case against that company - Like DJI, but I doubt it. If the cases starts rolling in, you will need to have service and inspection of your drone at every flight, and pay for the larger service every flight hour, and have to scrap batteries af 20 charges etc. Not sure if this is what you want.

If you make a bad judgement, it is your fault. If you get a flyaway, try to sue the US government who provides the GPS satellites, or uBlox who makes the GPS.

Conclusion is, it is very difficult to blame anybody but the idiot holding the transmitter, who fails to switch to manual mode and land on first signs of trouble, or who flies out of range.

When I went to the local club to get some basic flight training, and my plane crashed due to bad radio signal (using parkflyer OrangeRX R615x RX),I had nobody to blame but me. I am the one who made the plane, picked components etc. I am not blaming HobbyKing/Orange Rx for selling me a non-full range RX.

Take responsibilities for your actions.

Again, you seem to have all the answers, so why ask the question?

As an industrial software and R+D engineer the answer is simple although the problem is far from simple. 

The individual who assembles and operates the aircraft/ Drone/ RC model is primarily responsible for any damage or injury that is caused to a third party. That's why we have insurance.

That is why it is important to operate in a safe way and away from persons and property "in case" there is an unknown issue. 

If there is a known issue with a controller or aircraft setup and you ignore that issue then YOU accept the risk. 

I you can PROVE negligence then YOU have a claim against the manufacturer or supplier.

If you cannot prove negligence then its your problem.

What needs to be done to address this is an independent and skilled organisation that is capable of interpreting the log data and aircraft design or assembly to give a credible version of the accident taking into account the weather, flying conditions, construction, statements etc.

That should not be the Police OR the FAA.  

Darius Jack is responsible for most drone crashes...  On a more personal note, Darius, I don't like the person you choose to be. :)  I await your response most anxiously...that is...unless you've been banned which would be awesome - I tire of you de-railing good discussions.

Also, 'seems like this may not be the first discussion board this clown's been banned from?

http://www.developers.meethue.com/content/how-post-question-everyhue

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