### Game of Clones...........

Just came across this Pixhawk clone, so thought I would share.

Ready to Fly Quads is a reputable distributor, and I have made a few purchases from them already. They already have a clone of the APM2.x, that has been somewhat successful. Will this new clone be just as good. for under \$100USD, might be work a try.

• "the general state of the world and what is happening in it affects your right to fly RC"

Well... so much for flying remote control aircraft FPV in the US now. The key to life is looking ahead and reacting to it before it catches up with you. But what we see the FAA doing is nothing compared to what is really coming down now and it's not hidden. But again no one is reacting to it allowing it to happen and I wonder what people will say when they see what happened to me happen to them. I know how they will feel.

Despite knowing my RC aircraft were not packed up for shipping and would almost certainly be damaged (as they were) I looked ahead and did not react emotionally as expected on June 9, 2009 and left my property before the Sheriffs had time to think about what my leaving in good health might cause. And by taking away my Civil Rights with everything I own they created the extra time needed with nothing else to do to figure out the cause of the fine structure constant as well as it's equation: e{a}/t=hv. You are looking at a lever for time dilation and the key to building a new generation of space craft as well as using the "dark matter effect" for generating energy.

If you ignore the right side of the equation since E=hv and focus on the left side only you will see it's actually a very simple equation centered on the asymmetry of the weak force value in effect that lets E be transferred while maintaining a constant value. It helps to realize that the value of {a} is never the same twice as time moves forward as it's a lever with two different length arrows where more time goes back in than came out of the weak force because E=T and time is always increasing in the strong force so a balance must be maintained.

SLAC after seeing their E158 data match CERN's neutrino data announced worldwide at (v-c)/c=2.48e-5 sec in 453.6 miles went back over what's called the BaBar experiment and detected the asymmetry in time the two sets of data created and gave it a sigma 14 level of certainty and did so while being funded by the DOE. What this means is gravity is caused by a harmonic comma, and while the mathematics that created the illusion of "missing" dark matter is correct there is no such thing as space is forming in a harmonic octave level structure. The further back in time you look, the lower the octave level frequency explaining the illusion. But this is no illusion and no one takes away my Civil Rights connected to my freewill {a} without paying a price that costs them their own. And this is not just my opinion anymore, but rather a proven fact of physics brought about by connecting consciousness with Mass using Ohm's law and the DNA's gene ensemble.

We may not be allowed to fly RC aircraft FPV in the US anymore, but my patent experience and billing by patent attorney Murray Hatch of Schapp and Hatch on January 20, 1984: Ref.: 680.1 shows a Nano QX or similar size quad copter up to an unspecified weight and size where 100 grams and 250 mm is within any reasonable man's historic interpretation of a toy. This is proven by the required search extension listed separating the toy art from larger and heavier remote control aircraft capable of causing harm when flown improperly.

Micro Motor Warehouse with warehouses in the US, EU and AU sells quality toy motors at a reasonable price. And despite their exceptionally small size I have been told that their 8mm motors used in a quad copter powered by a 20g battery @ 120mm and AUW of 50g fly quite well in the wind and I am looking into building a mini delta wing as well with two toy engines for yaw control via thrust vectoring that will be able to be flown FPV legally because it's obviously a toy, not a real aircraft like a larger RC aircraft capable of causing harm. The past historic battery weights used (to avoid argument and reasonable concern) should not in my opinion be considered or included because smaller light weight batteries let that argument be avoided and modern electronics allow a toy to be made even smaller and lighter yet capable of carrying the toy size FVP equipment needed without being a threat to real aircraft which is the FAA's only concern. And since the FAA has no control over the harmless toy classification we should focus on it until a reasonable mass density and weight/size limit is established for FPV RC aircraft that pose no threat to full scale aircraft is established.

• hotelzuluiima said: "WTF does your rather lengthy screed on police beatings etc and HOA(s) have ANYTHING to do with diydrones and the subject at hand?"

Read David's insulting post and be sure to notice his attitude of justification that caused the insults but most of all his summery of "winning" and how far off the mark it is with reality. And I hate to say it but you need to read my post again and GAF because the general state of the world and what is happening in it affects your right to fly RC aircraft people are trying to take away from you as you read this. Your intelligence and abilities as well as the members of this fourm threatens some people. So my post has far more than "anything" to do with flying RC aircraft we build now being called drones. Not to mention every other aspect of your life being affected by corruption you probably refuse to see in supporting your own chemical base of emotions. I'm not saying this to insult you, just move you around a little so you see things outside of your own "box" so you see the short future ahead where your rights have any value.

When you understand what the FPV situation is creating and see others around you losing their rights because the police are breaking the law out in the open while wheels are turning to stop you putting your RC aircraft in the air you should realize it's time to wake up and take notice, not just sit in your box to feel comfortable with the view it creates. I know some people don't like my posts, they're not supposed to. Nobody like's having their comfort zone shaken. But your reply as expected coming from somewhere shows exactly what my posts address and support what I'm saying. And Google will show as fast as it gave me SLAC's E158 data value in a matter of seconds that my posts are not generated by spam, although many people would love to get people to believe that.

Perhaps I should sign my signature again for the 3rd time after busting the same corruption using the same legal system to take away your freedom as well as everyone else's after I took mine back and walk away with the money and buy whatever I want so they can continue and chock up the expense as the cost of doing business to move forward creating an outcome History class tells you comes next. And notice most people don't believe it can happen until it does happen after ignoring the warning signs as bright as neon lights. That's why History is a required subject. Even the corrupt cops think it can't happen but they will do as they are told when the time comes and so will the good cops so make no mistake about that fact. They took away my remote control aircraft in violation of a Superior Court order, but that was to stop a lawsuit I was about to win and acquire everything I own in payoff thinking no one would notice. So look at the pattern in effect and realize they will take away your remote control aircraft next when the laws are passed that allow it legally. When there are this many people that how they have to do it. Why do you think they took away everyone's guns in New Orleans when they might be lawfully needed most? Our military complained about doing that but they violated the Constitution and did as they were told to do anyway. It's called training. When I post here it is to protect my right to fly remote control aircraft and my post brought up issues threatening it so it has everything to do with what diydrones supports and believes in. I just extended the picture a "little". And using a magnetic balancer the small 7 in APC props I have cannot be balanced further as their small size forces me to use both holes making it appear the hub balance is a little off and will need to be balanced on the motor using a laser and trail and error.

Adrian and Tearig, I am aware the Witespy boards have been dependable but my concern was the insulting and disrespectful nature used in justification of the post I replied to and what follows as Ebay gets filled with controller boards that are not dependable in a free for all that threatens the hobby. These are real aircraft and we need to self regulate as some of the concerns are well justified and all it will take is the right incident to shut the new generation of RC aircraft down.

I agree there are advantages to not only a common design, but fair competition that creates better designs as well and that requires respect, not insults to those that have contributed to get the ball rolling and deserve credit for what they have done. RC911 pulled his valuable posts because of such posts and when a pattern starts it's best to correct it before it grows. You guys are way ahead of me as I had "issues" in the same energy pattern we are all a part of that literally stopped my life and still affects the lives of my friends and neighbors being sued in bad faith and I'm just catching up with the incredible progress made and in the dark to most of what is going on. I can't stop human nature but I can see when it threatens itself and say something to try to correct it. The way I see it, if I don't do it no one will do it for me. And in that regard I have physics and the basic function of a control rotor in agreement that shows the importance of the "little guy" exerting a weak force to control what happens next. And that applies to all observers even though most would rather not accept their own responsibility to themselves explaining the loss of their own freewill and the talent of those that understand it to take it away from them

• @hendry

<FLAME ON>

WTF does your rather lengthy screed on police beatings etc and HOA(s) have ANYTHING to do with diydrones and the subject at hand?

Its an Honest question NOT a troll. And that being said your post resembles being generated by a spam generator trying to generate spam that will pass spam assassin.

sorry I thought this subject/topic was about cloning vs 3DR , NOT about the general state of the world

hzl

ps side note.. APC props generally ALWAYS require balancing in a multirotor use unless you LIKE jello in your video...

</Flame off>

• Ultimately Clones are only bad if the erode the market for the branded product, and this does not seem to be the case, as even recently certain restrictions have limited international sales, so in this case the 'clones' can help market proliferation using a common design... not all that different than the early PC 80's which were all considered IBM clones... to more recently the android market... either way you cannot argue the dominance of the resulting platform

• You assume because the RTFHawk is less expensive that it is made from inferior components.  This is not true.  I have been flying Witespy boards (APM 2.6, Mega Pro 3, Flip, Flip 32 (Naze) for over a year and they have been flawless.  I would say that based on current reports the RTFHawk may be of superior quality to 3DR.

• David, regarding your statement  "but not everyone"  we all need to accept that it only takes a few of  these excluded "not everyones" to ruin the RC hobby for everyone because of using cheap inferior quality parts on RC aircraft that can turn a responsible RC pilot into a danger that may hurt someone when their RC aircraft fails. I have had way too many issues lately receiving "clone" parts that have no owner and are just plain unsafe to use from watt meter power analyzers that "imbalance" lipo batteries to simple things like props that simply do not work well but are being sold anyway.

Take the APC 7x5 props being cloned some people buy to save one dollar thinking they are basically the same and imagine what would happen if everyone used them. Here's to stopping this mentality by exposing the facts. The APC prop is a very impressive high quality accurate \$2.50 tool if you don't try to remove all the paper thin mold flashing on the inserts after removing the two molding joints and only cut an even outer circle at most and press them in "as is". This is because that top material some people remove is needed because the inserts are precession tapered two degrees and the side with the thin flashing is the larger side that matches with the bottom of the prop's hole (so it must be inserted with the smaller side facing inward) creating the extreme accuracy APC has achived. The real APC props I purchased required no balancing that could be detected with confidence as only one hole is actually centered and you use both on a prop balancer. Impressive, but look at the \$1.00 less APC clones and you see they were drilled out by hand (see melted plastic inside the hole) and some are visually off centered but sold anyway and the one I received in a flying wing kit could not only not be balanced (within reason), but when I replaced it with a real APC prop I had to accept the fact that even the excellent APC prop could not be used with the prop saver the kit provided as I expected because it too was held up by the two set screws used to attached the prop mount and secure the rubber o-ring and the prop rocked back and forth on top of the two screws rather than sit flat and secure. The result can be seen on Youtube where a guy is unable to fly the wing due to the prop rocking so sever it hit the trailing edge of the wing when applying power ripping his brand new wing apart. The builder/pilot was unable to see the cause I noticed to resolve before flying it. Most end users rely on properly designed products that work. Moved as a flying wing moves when hand launched like a Frisbee in maintaining it's precession the prop is subject to come off when increasing power rapidly showing it is a greater danger to the pilot and spectator’s eyesight than the wing which can be repaired.

The point being made here is we see a major manufacturer in the RC market selling a popular product made in China that does not work out of the box without proper reengineering and is a danger to people’s eyesight all due to an obvious and simple reason made worse by using a cloned prop. But with modern electronics you cannot see such gross mistakes and the flight controller is just that... the controller. And when it fails the pilot's skill means little and that puts the RC hobby at risk by out of control RC aircraft.

The only reason the crime of stealing intellectual property rights is allowed is because greed breaking laws powers the world, not because people like yourself fully support the rights of others as you claim. You are lying to yourself if you believe that. People for the most part do nothing other than follow their own desires which make them easy to control using greed and as a result there is no Civil Contract Law left in the US, and as a result of that fact Criminal Law is following suit as June 9, 2009 showed but only (noticed) because SLAC's E158 data matched CERN's neutrino data announced worldwide in Sept 2011 and another important new equation extended what the data exposed (the asymmetry of gravity within the fine structure constant).

But June 9, 2009 is just one of many dates Americans are too busy to be concerned about in the quest of their own selfish pleasure with others hardly noticed that are far worse indicators of America’s future. The WA Sheriffs wore smiles that day in supporting the illegal deception to assist a political lobbyist stop a lawsuit thousands of miles away that remained painted on their faces before hate arrived to power the greed out in the open as would have happened if I had reacted emotionally to their blatantly breaking the law as most people would have under the same circumstances. And IMO my reacting to support my Civil Rights as most people would have and getting shot "as a threat" was expected and part of the plan as outlined in my lawsuit showing what was being set up as well as proving we have lost the legal system that is supposed to protect us. We see this lie used by police on a daily basis now and often against completely defenseless women supplying the feeling of domination in what often amounts to a common act of sex that is more common as you look back in history. Your reading this is very unusual because it was not their plan to let a felony criminal conspiracy used to stop a 9 year lawsuit and dispute through felony theft  become noticed so look at the real world around you, not the one you make up in your mind.

My last post before this was regarding 3 police officers caught on camera acting in a rage of hate trying to abort an unborn baby by holding it's mother on the ground and beating her hitting her in the stomach as hard as they could over and over again as she screamed for help that fear keeps away. And you know what, despite thousands of people witnessing the crime of hate no one in authority has done anything about it except cover it up and that is why it is just one of many videos on Youtube that show the police in America becoming like the police in Germany not that long ago and as in Mexico today as the isolated rich rely on greed and emotion rather than logic to control people. But knowledge is power so brute force is always used in the end to remove people's freewill in supporting greed because real logic and the associated answers that follow are hard to come by and most of the world can only copy what they are shown. So don't claim BS to insult people that have worked hard to create something you desire and your choice to let greed steer you away from supporting them. When you look you will see your freewill is being controlled and your response was a reaction to justify someone copying someone else’s achievement regardless of being open source software that gives the end user control of their equipment as well as others to copy it. UAV pilots should not be thankful for lower quality clones as they put the RC hobby at risk and only a fool would put clone APC props on their quad to save \$4.00 and we don't want fools flying RC aircraft. Nor do we want a world where high quality products like APC props are not available because cheap lower quality imitations are purchased instead.

And before you say that can’t happen look at the multi-million dollar electronic synthesizer keyboard industry and do a search on key pressure aftertouch, a once common and essential feature needed to emulate a stringed instrument and many others with the main goal of building a synthesizer now left out as bass heavy “I AM” mentality replaces real music where “WE ARE” too all because the numbers of over population and ignorance control the market place, not the need of making quality instruments that do the job they are intended to do. Putting poly AT back in with today’s technology costs little but you cannot buy a keyboard anymore that has the keys respond individually to aftertouch as was available back in the 80’s despite musicians who understand screaming about what is missing. And the same applies here as the APC prop clones show. To the masses they are all the same which could not be further from the truth. If you lose one aircraft because of a clone controller board purchased off EBay from some unknown source you will pay many times more for the next “cheap” replacement than the original Pixhawk would have cost you. And justifying people avoiding research and development costs by copying the work of others with cheap imitations is the fastest way to make sure only cheap inferior copies are available for purchase as well as stopping the motivation that creates new and far better products people desire. Just look what happened with the Vax77 midi controller available for a short period of time and that is what you see happening here.

You said in summery: “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”

Really… why don’t you try saying that to the countless inventors throughout history that gave us our technology and ended up broke with little or nothing to show of it despite the gift of knowledge they provided, or even the home owners throughout the US that lost their homes to the legal system used to support illegal HOA activity. Say it to the serviceman that lost his home because he was called to war trying to defend what America stands for. Say it to Kelly Thomas’s father and then ask yourself what will be the end result of not remembering or knowing his name while remembering the name of scientists that died broke. Believe me, you won’t end up winning. If you can’t even use the legal system to protect your home or avoid being beat up and killed by the police breaking the law how are you ever going to protect your intellectual rights so you can create more and be a greater benefit to society? Only when people see past their own greed will the intellectual rights of others be protected. And you my friend are an expert at justification, not supporting people’s intellectual rights or achievements.

• For an open source community the comments left by the developers and some of the 3dr staff seem pretty hostile. Rob_Lefebvre comments alone have made me rethink what 3dr represents.

You guys really have your panties in a bunch.

Both 3dr and readytoflyquads are based in the United States, If there was any copyright infringement or if any laws had been broken you would have every right to take legal action. And I would fully support you doing so

But if no laws have been broken then shut your cry holes. You based your company on an open source idea, now you are trying to bite the hand that feeds you. If your smart enough to write code then your smart enough to know that China steals everything. You should have worked it into your business model and planned for it.

As for witespy not contributing, you fail to see past your nose, he is helping get people into the UAV's who would otherwise not have the budget (youth, artists, people in poorer countries) . After they learn to fly on something they can afford to break or lose they will naturally want to expand what there UAV can do. Its a stepping stone for someone to move on to your product.

As for quality of www.readytoflyquads.com products Buy a Flip 1.5 for \$15.00 (if you can fly without a computer wiping your butt) It handles like a sports car, and has a great build quality. I can't think of a better way to spend \$15.00, everyone needs a quad they can fly for fun without stressing about crashing. It makes you a better pilot.

Paul/witespy/readytoflyquads is trying to put quality, durable, cheap quads, and parts on the market, I don't see how that is a bad thing for the UAV community.

Also it might take a few days but PAUL PERSONALLY ANSWERS YOUR EMAILS, oh yea and \$4.00 flat shipping even to Alaska is awesome.

UAV pilots should all be thankful to the "clones" as they keep 3dr's pricing in check. By no means am I saying 3dr's products are overpriced, I believe they offer a great product at a great price, and even if they charge twice or three times as much as a "clone" I believe they built a quality brand/product/support network that can justify the price difference to a lot of people, but not everyone.

I just want to try out follow me mode,

I was sitting on the fence about going with the 3dr or RTF, the negative comments made by developers, and 3dr staff pushed me over to RTF, If that's your community ill take isolation. Picking on the small guy just made your company look weak.

you can call me a cheapskate, parasite, whatever, but I just ordered the RTFhawk, partly because i want to thumb my nose at Rob, get off your high horse,

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

By getting all hot and bothered by one guy from FL you lost.

• Or that possibly that this thread is still alive that maybe 3drobotics is really that much better than saving a few bucks...

To my experience all the "clones" seem to be slightly older designs, or shortcut in some way... or it is my hope.

I am looking forward to a recent 3DR purchase, as I have yet to use either new Pixhawk, the OG should arrive from them in the next day or so...

• The larger point of all of this and I know some people have tried to express it in this thread.  It would have been better left out.  Now this has spilled over into forums with many more users than DIYDrones and many users that were using open source pilots and including 3DR products.  It has over all left a bad taste in peoples mouth and sparked needless distractions from the project as a whole.  The spirit of open source is that we all benefit collectively.  I believe that 3DR has built a successful model around working WITH the open source community.  It has done itself a disservice by choosing to get mired in these conflicts by complaining about clones and for people not given them enough credit.  Linking back to the site apparently is taking bandwidth instead of giving them credit.  It really boils down to does 3DR and its representatives want to get bogged down in the debate of who is right or who is wrong?  I think that this thread has carried on for 32 pages of proof of it does not matter how much within its rights 3DR is in making this decision, it has already damaged it reputation here.  There are ten times this many pages on other forums about the same subject flaming 3DR for this decision.  Regardless of who is right or wrong, 3DR had limited itself and at best has caused this to be distraction or at worst have hurt the long term prospects of ardupilot.

• Paying a premium for branded products seems dimwitted, its like saying you want to take Tylenol but you will not touch acetaminophen. The idea is that it will push down production costs while allowing more users and let the designer and the open source community to develop mods and ports for the hardware. I understand the support for 3DR, as they are amazing however the person to purchase a discounted pixhawk will be the ones that want to innovate ... Or like me want additional controllers as a better rate...

What I like best is that it looks like their only 3 printed circuit manufactures that have produced boards, and from what it seems all at one time made boards and delivered to 3DR...

I look at buying these like buying open box items at best buy... They could be great... But if you have a problem, I hope you are smart