A smaller Quad the DJI Flamewheel F330 with an APM.

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I previously posted a BLOG about setting up the FJI F450 Flamewheel with the APM2 and the copter was a great success so I thought I'd put together a smaller and lighter version - The F330 Flamewheel.

My F500 weighs 2 pound 11 ounces ready to fly and I am shooting for 1 pound 11 ounces with the F330 and still quite a substantial battery as you can see.

This copter should fly very well outdoors, is much better suited to flying indoors than the F450 and uses the same excellent DJI motors (and in this instance ESCs) as the F450 so will have a very high performance potential.

There are a few things that it is worthwhile to know when using the excellent and robust Flamewheel and I did things a little differently as well.

I am mostly just going to point up the things you will need to know regarding the Flamewheel.

For general quadcopter construction you can refer to the Arducopter Wiki and to my downloadable PDF file Downloadable instructions I have provided there.

Rather than order the Flamewheel F330 ARF kit, I elected to order the F450 ARF kit and a separate F330 Frame kit.

This cost me an extra $40.00, but it comes with 30 amp ESCs instead of 18 amp ones and I can also use the extra frame as spare parts for my F450.

The F450 ARF kit also comes with 2 sets of props (8" and 10" and the F330 kit comes with only one set of 8" props.

You may not elect to do this, the 18 amp ESCs are probably a little smaller and the frame is lightly loaded, so going over current should be very unlikely and 10" props WILL NOT fit on the F330.

In any case, currently the ARF F330 kit is available for $180.00 and the F450 for $190.00 and the F330 frame by itself is $30.00.

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The above Picture shows the prop clearance on the F330 with 8" props on it.

9" props will fit but 10" ones will not.

I will be switching to 9" Carbon reinforced GemFan props which I very much like for both their considerable strength and their higher than normal efficiency.

A 9" prop is definitely better suited to this frame and motor with  a standard 3 cell LiPo setup although 8" would be fine for a 4 cell setup.

General assembly notes.

  1. Go to the DJI web site Flamewheel support section to get a copy of their "manual" none is included with the Copter kits. It is more of an assembly diagram than a manual, but the pictures are definitely useful.
  2. I put the ESCs in after assembly because it allows me to fit things more closely but then does require a bit of creativity when soldering the ESC leads to the bottom plate / power distribution board. Your choice.
  3. Use Blue or purple removable Locktite very sparingly on the threads of the Allen screws when you assemble the frame. Try to keep excess off of the plastic. Not actually achievable, but do the best you can.
  4. The motor and frame screws have a shoulder on them and you need to tighten them all sufficiently so that the shoulder fully seats. I recommend installing all screws (with Locktite) loosely then tightening all the screws on each frame arm one at a time. Do this in one sitting.
  5. When installing the motors, pre-bend the motor leads upward a bit where the exit the motor bottom so that the motor can sit flat. Have the leads exit towards the center of the copter (motor bottom screws are off set and it can only be installed 2 ways), toward the center is correct. The motor screws are short and it is tricky to start the first screw on the motor bottom, ensuring that the motor lead is not pushing the motor up helps. Use blue Locktite on each screw and install all 4 screws for a motor loosely and then tighten them.

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  1. I Thread the motor leads down through the first 2 large frame member holes, but you can also run them around the frame member if you wish.
  2. Install the ESCs with tie wraps. I do them from front to back through the frame member of the copter and between the motor bullet connector sockets for a slightly neater and more secure installation.
  3. I install the ESC power leads through the slot in the bottom of the frame member and then trim and solder them to the power distribution board. This is a little harder than the normal method of going around the outside of the frame members but it is neater and provides a little additional battery clearance.
  4. When you solder the ESC and Battery power leads to the power distribution board you will need to flux and preheat both the pads and the wire in order to get a wet and properly tinned solder joint, the board can soak up quite a bit of heat so set your soldering iron hotter than you normally use.
  5. You will need an external BEC because the OPTO ESC's do not contain a BEC and Castle Creations makes an excellent and very reliable 10 amp one for about $20.00. You should also be able to use the one that is supplied with the APM 2.5 board and it is smaller. Use a switching BEC in any case, they are more reliable and a lot more efficient than linear ones.
  6. You do not need to and in fact can't balance the DJI ESCs as shown on the Arducopter Wiki, they are digital, optically isolated and are completely pre-balanced at the factory. Basically they work great out of the box.
  7. I am probably going to use a APM 2.5 on this Quadcopter and I will either use two rows of double sided Velcro or suspended O ring mounting of the enclosed APM.
  8. You can use the stock 8" DJI props and they will work OK, but I will be switching to GemFan 9" multirotor "Carbon" props which are only $2.00 each and in my opinion much superior to the stock 8" props. They are almost impossible to break and the 9" ones will be considerably more efficient with these motors and a 3 cell LiPo than the stock 8" props. The 9" GemFans are not made for the DJI hub, but you can bore them out to about .31" with an ordinary drill and they work fine (I use 11" GemFans bored out this way on my Flamewheel F450. (The bigger the diameter of the prop you can fit the more efficient it is all other things being equal and not exceeding motor or ESC maximums.)
  9. The ESCs automatically disarm after 10 seconds without the motor turning, but now, the APM also disarms after 10 seconds so, there is not conflict, anytime you have sat still for over 10 seconds you need to rearm. This is a great safety feature.
  10. When you are setting up the APM with only the USB connected, the ESCs may beep continuously, ignore them or throw a pillow over the top of the whole thing (our dog hates them).
  11. After you have loaded and adjusted the firmware when you turn your transmitter on and plug in the battery , the ESC's should emit a short series of musical notes and then be quiet. You are then ready to arm and fly.

I have only covered the substantial differences for the DJI F330 FlameWheel from the Normal Quadcopter setup. For general quadcopter construction you should refer to the Arducopter Wiki and to my Downloadable PDF file instructions I have provided there.

If my F450 is any comparison, this F330 should be even more fun and a lot easier to use indoors - (safely).

My starting PIDs will be what  normally use on my F450: Angular Rate P = .145, Angular Rate I = .030 and Stabilize P = 4.0

I will post additions to this Blog when I finish this project and as I gain experience with the F330. Please feel free to comment or ask questions, I will monitor this BLOG and respond as best I can.

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Comments

  • Hi there,

    Am I right in saying the F330 is no longer in production? Also, will the 3DR Pixhawk (rather than the PX4) fit on either the F330 or the F450 frame?

    /Cheers,

    Jelte

  • Hi,
    Can you please post the exact PID values for F330 + APM2.5. Right now I'm using the default PID values.
    Thanks in Advance.
  • Looking good... just finished my f330 and wanted to step up to a bigger battery, currently running 3s 1800 30c Glaciers.  I am adding fatshark predator v2 this week and already have the 900mhz telemetry onboard.  What do you think about a 3300 or 4000mah 4s battery?

  • Hi David,

    I have now put a PX4 on my little F330 and it is flying very well.

    My BLOG for this is here http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/bringing-up-a-px4-on-a-flamewhe...

    And a picture of its finished form is here http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/new-arducopter-arduplane-and-ar...

    I have the PX4 2 board stack attached to a thin fiberglass intermediate plate and that plate is sitting on 3/4" Kyosho Zeal pads at each corner. and soft foam pushing down from above.

    It is dead stable in alt hold (doesn't move up or down at all).

    Havent go vibration log yet but must be very good.

    The Rate PID is set to P = .08 and I = .05 (and I have -40% expo on my transmitter.)

    Very stable flight very happy

  • Hey Gary,

    Thanks for your post, can you give some update about your quad ? Is it still flying ok ?

    I'd be interrested to know what kind of payload you did put in this config, and how much time can you fly indoor with.

    I'm planning to use a similar config and put a 250g payload.

    Anyway, congrats, seems a really cool config

  • I have since added standoffs at all 4 corners and O-ring suspension mounted the APM 2.5 board between them.

    The results were excellent:

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  • Three approximately 8 minute flights, low stress mostly hover uses about 1 volt on my LiPo dropping from 12.6 volts to 11.6 volts, so should be good for 12 - 15 minute flights depending on stress.

    At my high PIDs the roll / pitch stick is quite sensitive, but control is very positive and it is quite easy to maintain a hover with hardly any horizontal movement in Stabilize.

    It definitely experiences ground effect, but with a little practice it is easy to fly any distance above the ground. Probably the most noticeable effect is that when landing, coming down at a quick rate tends to induce a 2 to 4" hop, surprising but not problematic. If you taper to a slow landing it is completely normal.

    I flew outdoors with a gusty side wind, but the mass of this little copter made it easy to handle and surprisingly stable and "solid".

    With the PIDs the way I have them set this little copter will do exactly what you tell it to, good or bad and very quickly.

    It is also very durable, I got it stuck in a tree and also bounced it off of my greenhouse to the ground (plastic, not glass) and it survived undamaged (practicing maneuvers outside my current skill set).

    So far my biggest problem with it is that it is so compliant it encourages you to push your personal envelope.

    It is very usable indoors, but it has quite a bit of mass and power and so is dangerous to pets and people (and fragile belongings), so I recommend keeping it under tight control when flying indoors.

    It is definitely small enough and stable enough to safely fly through normal doorways if you have sufficient skill.

    It definitely has plenty of power to carry a small camera like a GoPro and I am going to put to together a simple mount for my Adixxion.

    If the camera WiFi is usable at the same time as the transmitter (by no means a foregone conclusion), it should be a hoot to FPV it around indoors. Adixxion "live preview" delay is not as bad as GoPro's Delay.

    Bottom line, if you want a multicopter that is truly at home both indoors and out, the Flamewheel F330 seems about as close as you can come.

  • Just thought I'd send a picture of the F330 finished and operational. (OK I'll probably still tidy it up a bit, but this is really a test bed). Lots of Tie-wraps.

    Weighs one pound 12 ounces with a 2650 MAH 3 cell Turnigy Nano LiPo and my target was one pound 11 ounces, so that worked out pretty well. By comparison my F450 weighs 2 pounds 11 ounces.

    I have installed a Castle Creations 5/10 amp BEC and a Hitec 6 channel Optima receiver and of course the APM2 (off of my F450). 

    The APM2 is Velcro attached to the F330 and rubber O-ring suspension mounted on my F450 and swapping it takes 2 or 3 minutes.

    Fly's fine with stock F450 PIDs but definitely a bit sensitive and a huge amount of excess power is available.

    It works fine with stock 8" DJI Propellers, but I expect 9" GemFans to be quieter and more efficient.

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  • Thanks for the Advice Randy, my F450 is extremely sensitive so I am sure you are right with the 330.

    I normally use the APM board suspended between 4 O-rings on standoffs, but the 330 is a bit tight on room for that.

    Do you have any suggestions as to the most effective under board vibration damping medium?

    And Robert, I'm sure your son will have a blast with it, I really enjoy my 450 and am looking forward to finishing the 330.

    One question, my 450 and 330 arms are really stiff and structurally strong, but I have heard some people complaining about them being weak and flexible.

    Do your clones arms seem like they might be excessively flexible or weak?

    I was wondering if the clones are less stiff and strong than the real Flamewheels.

    The real ones are so hard that the arms actually clink when you hit the arms together and although you can twist an arm end by hand, they certainly seem more than adequately stiff.

  • Thanks for this Gary.  I picked up a F330 clone frame from HK just to fill up the weight on an order.  I want to get it set up to get something for my son to try flying, and this will help.

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