Hi the idea here is to come up with a new UAV specific airframe design for the DIY community. Seeing that the AP's are rapidly improving and are cost effective for DIY we have no Airframe to match. We need something with Ailerons to start with, its the only way to fly properly and prevent nasties. A Pod design may be the most flexible as they can be interchanged, also if positioned at the CG it will help to keep the airframe light and reduce CG problems with differing Pods/Payloads.We need some new standards for form factor for the AP and Payload to ease the pain of design and prevent the issues with adapting other designs. To start the ball rolling a few ideas below:UAV specific design, long term platformCost effective, not cheapAirframe with Rx, AP, BattPod for payload/AP (Interchangeable for different missions/payloads) with own powerPod design to form factor & Volume (maybe different Pod designs for same Airframe)New AP form factor (standardization) for mounting and space utilizationRequirements:Max PayloadMax weight to conform to legislation, also max speedDuration, batt size & motorAirframe weight (lower means more payload)SturdinessCGStabilityPod vibration isolationSensor vibration isolationSensor mounting points on airframe with wire pathways to ease installation & attachmentPod electrical connector or means to electrically connect to AirframePitot tube and/or AoA sensor build in, baro sensor positionWheeled or notLand and stall speedGimball for camera and other sensorsRgrdsSarel
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Exactly why a synopses was posted here. Also why the 2kg and 9kg limits for take off weight was set. In an earlier post I mentioned that we need to design the small Cat II bird first. Its the most relevant to what the community is doing here.
my 2 cents worth
< 2 kg
up to 10 k flight distance
2 km range (telemetry, etc)
electric engine
foam and carbon/fiberglass
rough design:
a foam based body with carbon or fiberglass boom to foam V tail
tail servos in body
body to include wing roots
carbon wing spar. no dihedral. possible wing fins.
servos in wing with wing as separate section.
all foam with smooth finish. spray finish
location of pilot parts pre determined and built into mould
Manufacturing
polyurethane expanding foam or polystyrene beads etc unless someone knows how to DIY EPP
2 part mould
Wings could be off the shelf or moulded also.
Sarel Wagner and Mark Shekleton are right about the need for modularity. Others contributing to this thread have hit very important features summarized as affordability, availability (is it too windy to fly?), capability, transportability, durability and repairability (nice if the average Joe Flyer can repair the dings on his kitchen table in the apartment) affecting the selection of materials and the configuration's design approach.
I am very new to DIY but considered a very high timer in the UAV industry. I have been professionally manufacturing R/C and UAV airframe products for 25 years. In that time, I have designed and manufactured nine different R/C models from Trainers to Pattern and Funfly (selling over 30,000 units) and twenty-three different customer driven UAV platforms, delivering over 200 production units (who said there is one, two, or three design(s) that meets everyone's diverse mission requirements?). Based on this experience, I have found that our modular P5, P10, and P20 airframes have more than ably filled the bill for universities and commercial clients for over two decades. They are very affordable (there is a P20 WASP on Ebay, search under "DIY Drone") and can carry meaningful payloads.
For what it is worth, I can commit some of our resources toward the desire for a modular airframe to support DIY's intent - affordability and expanding telepresence activity. For example, we could easily adapt or scale down from our existing product line RTF, ARF, Kit, and even Plan packages that would yield very capable and repairable airframes with superior handling qualities at affordable costs that will keep the family home economics sensible. We also have a very large windtunnel that could be used by members of the community should other platform development efforts be considered. You would be surprised how tethered flight tests in a windtunnel improves the development process. I would also be happy to help with a teleconference node should others in this string want to have a venue to discuss these various ideas and help "gel the concept." It's amazing how fast things can be accomplished when you talk live with each other with immediate feedback.
If anyone would like to discuss this great opportunity further, feel free to call me at 480.355.2435 or drop me an email at thorpe@seeop.com.
The payload module should be a standard enclosure size. What do you think about making the payload compartment the size of a Radio Shack plastic project box? The main advantage would be abundant/ inexpensive supply... easy for anyone to purchase and modify. I've been messing with a design that has a 1.5 meter wingspan. Foam wing are an excellent choice because they are light, strong, inexpensive, and replaceable.
I think a more important measurement than range is airborne time. Sending your drone 50km away doesn't make much sense and the radio equipment needed to do that is impractical for this budget. Most UAS missions are local- drones fly in circles or raster pattern. I would like to shoot for an airborne time of about 2 hours. This is not impossible with a very small nitro engine. It is, however, nearly impossible with electric motors due to the size and cost of the battery pack.
I am an engineer currently serving in the Air Force. I have a degree in aviation operations and completing another in electronics engineering. I am more than willing to spearhead an open source airframe. I have several plans I've worked on already. Anyone who is interested can contact me at mshekleton at gmail dot com.
The modular design is a good idea. An interchangeable payload pod placed at the mean aerodynamic chord would be necessary for balanced flight. For maximum duration a large wingspan with a small gas engine is essential. I propose a category III UAV as cat IV will be impossible to legally fly (the FAA is VERY stingy with their UAV permits). A cat III aircraft would have a maximum payload of about 10 pounds, sufficient for most DIY applications. Fast flight is not usually a priority for UAV's. I would err towards slow stall speed and high stability.
The arduino brain sold on this website is very good but there is always room for improvement. I've built a couple flight control computers that are powerful and would make an starting point for an open source project.
So logically we need to start not with the airframe but with the mission. As we know we cannot fly outside LOS so distance is not an issue, maybe a number of laps (loiter) may make up distance. On the small airframe battry capacity and energy consumption will be the limit. On a larger airframe there is more space for "fuel", also a larger payload of say 2-3kg for a range of say 50Km.
Stability of the airframe is important, maybe slow flying as well. How to fly such a small wing slow? What is the practical limit in still air for slow flying?
Any other countries with information regarding Airframe restrictions, kindly add it to this. We need to come up with two designs it seems, a small one (2kg, 4.4lbs) and a bigger one ??kg.
Different countries have rules with different impact on the design of the DIY UAV (Airframe impact only):
USA
Max speed 87 knots, 44.8m/s, 161kmh
All sUAS operated under this regulation must be colored with a high-contrast scheme
capability to descend 50 feet within five seconds
If operating greater than 400 AGL all sUAS weighing over 4.4 lbs (2 kilograms (kgs)) must have the capability to display position and altitude information to the PIC
Weight:
Cat I < 4.4 lbs (2 kgs) Must not be capable of exceeding more than 30 knots calibrated airspeed at full
power in level flight. Constructed in a frangible manner.
Cat II < 4.4 lbs (2 kgs) Gross take-off weight equal to or less than 4.4 lbs (2 kgs) including fuel, batteries,
and payload. Capable of less than 60 knots calibrated airspeed at full power in level flight. Cruise speed of less than 40 knots in level flight.
Cat III < 19.8 lbs (9 kgs) Gross take-off weight equal to or less than 19.8 lbs (9 kgs) including fuel, batteries, and payload. The sUAS must be capable of providing position and altitude data to the PIC. Aviation Band Radio: If operating within 5 NM of a non-towered airport, a qualified visual observer involved with the operation must monitor UNICOM or CTAF and announce sUAS activity on the frequency of the closest airport consistent with applicable procedures.
All Group III sUAS operating beneath
the floor of the lateral limits of Class C or B airspace, or within the Mode C veil, must be equipped and operate an electronic positioning reporting system consistent with 14 CFR 91.215 or acceptable to the Administrator.
Cat IV < 55 lbs (25 kgs) Group IV sUAS are the largest sUAS permitted to operate under this regulation. Because of
their large size, their operation is restricted to extremely remote areas that pose minimal
perceived risk to those on the surface. The PIC must obtain a Letter of Authorization (LOA) from the FAA verifying that
the planned area of operation can be considered uninhabited and extremely remote.
RSA
Light UAS with maximum take-off mass of less than 150 kg
Max 70 knots, 36m/s, 130 kmh
Has an impact kinetic energy that does not exceed 95 kJ when assessed against both a high speed and free-fall impact scenario, and which is calculated as follows - i. Kinetic energy = 0.5*Max. Operating Mass*(1.4 * Max. Level Speed) and Kinetic energy resulting at impact from a free fall from a height of 400 ft.
Replies
Exactly why a synopses was posted here. Also why the 2kg and 9kg limits for take off weight was set. In an earlier post I mentioned that we need to design the small Cat II bird first. Its the most relevant to what the community is doing here.
Rgrds
Sarel Wagner
< 2 kg
up to 10 k flight distance
2 km range (telemetry, etc)
electric engine
foam and carbon/fiberglass
rough design:
a foam based body with carbon or fiberglass boom to foam V tail
tail servos in body
body to include wing roots
carbon wing spar. no dihedral. possible wing fins.
servos in wing with wing as separate section.
all foam with smooth finish. spray finish
location of pilot parts pre determined and built into mould
Manufacturing
polyurethane expanding foam or polystyrene beads etc unless someone knows how to DIY EPP
2 part mould
Wings could be off the shelf or moulded also.
I am very new to DIY but considered a very high timer in the UAV industry. I have been professionally manufacturing R/C and UAV airframe products for 25 years. In that time, I have designed and manufactured nine different R/C models from Trainers to Pattern and Funfly (selling over 30,000 units) and twenty-three different customer driven UAV platforms, delivering over 200 production units (who said there is one, two, or three design(s) that meets everyone's diverse mission requirements?). Based on this experience, I have found that our modular P5, P10, and P20 airframes have more than ably filled the bill for universities and commercial clients for over two decades. They are very affordable (there is a P20 WASP on Ebay, search under "DIY Drone") and can carry meaningful payloads.
Like most things with 25 years of hard work on them, our website (www.seeop.com) is in for a major facelift and upgrade. The new site will be completed in a few more days. Until then, previous material can be viewed at http://web.archive.org/web/20071115140202/http://www.seeop.com/
For what it is worth, I can commit some of our resources toward the desire for a modular airframe to support DIY's intent - affordability and expanding telepresence activity. For example, we could easily adapt or scale down from our existing product line RTF, ARF, Kit, and even Plan packages that would yield very capable and repairable airframes with superior handling qualities at affordable costs that will keep the family home economics sensible. We also have a very large windtunnel that could be used by members of the community should other platform development efforts be considered. You would be surprised how tethered flight tests in a windtunnel improves the development process. I would also be happy to help with a teleconference node should others in this string want to have a venue to discuss these various ideas and help "gel the concept." It's amazing how fast things can be accomplished when you talk live with each other with immediate feedback.
If anyone would like to discuss this great opportunity further, feel free to call me at 480.355.2435 or drop me an email at thorpe@seeop.com.
Happy Landings,
Douglas
I think a more important measurement than range is airborne time. Sending your drone 50km away doesn't make much sense and the radio equipment needed to do that is impractical for this budget. Most UAS missions are local- drones fly in circles or raster pattern. I would like to shoot for an airborne time of about 2 hours. This is not impossible with a very small nitro engine. It is, however, nearly impossible with electric motors due to the size and cost of the battery pack.
-Mark
The modular design is a good idea. An interchangeable payload pod placed at the mean aerodynamic chord would be necessary for balanced flight. For maximum duration a large wingspan with a small gas engine is essential. I propose a category III UAV as cat IV will be impossible to legally fly (the FAA is VERY stingy with their UAV permits). A cat III aircraft would have a maximum payload of about 10 pounds, sufficient for most DIY applications. Fast flight is not usually a priority for UAV's. I would err towards slow stall speed and high stability.
The arduino brain sold on this website is very good but there is always room for improvement. I've built a couple flight control computers that are powerful and would make an starting point for an open source project.
Look forward to hearing from you guys.
Mark
So logically we need to start not with the airframe but with the mission. As we know we cannot fly outside LOS so distance is not an issue, maybe a number of laps (loiter) may make up distance. On the small airframe battry capacity and energy consumption will be the limit. On a larger airframe there is more space for "fuel", also a larger payload of say 2-3kg for a range of say 50Km.
Stability of the airframe is important, maybe slow flying as well. How to fly such a small wing slow? What is the practical limit in still air for slow flying?
Rgrds
USA
Max speed 87 knots, 44.8m/s, 161kmh
All sUAS operated under this regulation must be colored with a high-contrast scheme
capability to descend 50 feet within five seconds
If operating greater than 400 AGL all sUAS weighing over 4.4 lbs (2 kilograms (kgs)) must have the capability to display position and altitude information to the PIC
Weight:
Cat I < 4.4 lbs (2 kgs) Must not be capable of exceeding more than 30 knots calibrated airspeed at full
power in level flight. Constructed in a frangible manner.
Cat II < 4.4 lbs (2 kgs) Gross take-off weight equal to or less than 4.4 lbs (2 kgs) including fuel, batteries,
and payload. Capable of less than 60 knots calibrated airspeed at full power in level flight. Cruise speed of less than 40 knots in level flight.
Cat III < 19.8 lbs (9 kgs) Gross take-off weight equal to or less than 19.8 lbs (9 kgs) including fuel, batteries, and payload. The sUAS must be capable of providing position and altitude data to the PIC. Aviation Band Radio: If operating within 5 NM of a non-towered airport, a qualified visual observer involved with the operation must monitor UNICOM or CTAF and announce sUAS activity on the frequency of the closest airport consistent with applicable procedures.
All Group III sUAS operating beneath
the floor of the lateral limits of Class C or B airspace, or within the Mode C veil, must be equipped and operate an electronic positioning reporting system consistent with 14 CFR 91.215 or acceptable to the Administrator.
Cat IV < 55 lbs (25 kgs) Group IV sUAS are the largest sUAS permitted to operate under this regulation. Because of
their large size, their operation is restricted to extremely remote areas that pose minimal
perceived risk to those on the surface. The PIC must obtain a Letter of Authorization (LOA) from the FAA verifying that
the planned area of operation can be considered uninhabited and extremely remote.
RSA
Light UAS with maximum take-off mass of less than 150 kg
Max 70 knots, 36m/s, 130 kmh
Has an impact kinetic energy that does not exceed 95 kJ when assessed against both a high speed and free-fall impact scenario, and which is calculated as follows - i. Kinetic energy = 0.5*Max. Operating Mass*(1.4 * Max. Level Speed) and Kinetic energy resulting at impact from a free fall from a height of 400 ft.
EU
Any EU info available please post here.
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