From the autopilot's easiest, most newbie task: inserting the boot CD:
"On some laptops, you have to enter "knoppix nopcmcia", otherwise it hangs."
In Paparazzi land, that's actually the way they talk. You have been warned.
Thanks for the comment (and congratulations--we're delighted) and I do take your point. I think Paparazzi is an amazing accomplishment, and I have one. The language I'm struggling with is not English but Linux. Maybe I'm just not smart enough, but I've been trying to get Linux to run properly on two laptops over three years, and I still can't get simple things like bluetooth working. So please excuse my frustration: it's not with your team, but with Linux on the desktop (we use it fine on our servers).
Dear Mr. Anderson,
first of all, I have the honor of being (at least one of) the first to congratulate to you for your new president. The world kept fingers crossed and we all hope that the world will become a somewhat better place to live in.
The Paparazzi people do something to help making UAVs available to "regular people" which you have underestimated, or, probably not even noticed:
In the Paparazzi land, the way they talk is YOUR language. So YOU should be the last to complain.
Martin
You may be reading a bit too much into this thread. My point is only that most of our users use Windows or Mac on the desktop, Forcing people to install and learn Linux before they can use Paparazzi is just one more hurdle, and I suspect it's discouraged some people from trying what it otherwise a great autopilot. What we love about Arduino is that it's cross-platform, so people can use the version that's most comfortable for them.
Excellent point, and I agree. Would you like to take the lead? I'd be very happy to start with a beginner's guide to considering if Paparazzi is right for you.
"but device driver problem still continue to bedevil many of us"
Chris, that is an overblown issue. I think anyone who has ever installed windows on a laptop will know that the device driver issue is a larger problem for windows than for Linux. If you install windows on a laptop, you will probably have minimal graphics, no sound, no wireless, and no wired ethernet. Your best bet at that point would be to boot the laptop using knoppix so you can get online to download drivers for windows(which can often be a multi hour hunt in itself).
I think that Linux is not the major hurdle for using paparazzi. For me, the largest hurdle was learning RC planes. That was at least as hard as navigating an unfamiliar OS.
The point is that paparazzi is the most powerful and most accessible open source autopilot out there. The paparazzi project is a perfect candidate for DIY DRONES. Yes it is hard, but that is partially due to its power. But any autopilot is going to be hard. I understand your wish for an easy entry point for people who are looking to get into UAVs as a hobby, and I am a huge fan of the arduino based autopilots. However, I think that paparazzi is also a nice fit for DIY DRONES, since some of us will have enough technical skill to take advantage of paparazzi.
Thanks for the comment. My post was a relatively light-heated comment, but it was after watching many months of people struggling to get Paparazzi working. I know that some people have no trouble, and Linux (especially Ubuntu), is getting easier to use, but device driver problem still continue to bedevil many of us. Also, the configuration process for Paparazzi is still beyond the ability of most non-technical people.
I know Paparazzi is not really intended for non-technical people, and I know that your own work, in particular, is making it much easier to use (and for that thank you!), but our use of beginner-friendly environment such as Arduino and Basic Stamp is intended to make DIY autopilots accessible to an much less technically savvy audience. As much as I admire Paparazzi, I think it's requirement that everyone be using Linux is a serious limitation.
Cory, your list of skills pretty much wraps it up.
Which skills do you need for ArduPilot or for the Basic Stamp autopilot?
All from your list except Linux, I guess. Linux is not the most complicated thing on the list, I guess again.
I had tried Linux years ago and had given up. Therefore I can understand resentments against Linux. To try the Paparazzi software, I installed the current version of Ubuntu (8.04). Voila, everything works without any tricks or tweaks!
Installing Linux has been "developer's" stuff long ago, but now it is very much like installing Windows. Need some other software? Just get it from the repositories, it's a breeze.
You do not need to understand the packet system, you just use it. It does wonderful things for you, compared to Windows programs which might mess up your DLL's and your registry and leave you in deep sh...
It has often been claimed that Linux is as easy as Windows for everyday user. This was definitely not true in the past, but now I tend to agree. Hardy Heron for president!
Using Microsoft products is easy. They give it to schools so kids grow up with it. You can hardly avoid buying it when you buy a computer. Well, the people in Redmond can use any extra dollar they can get. They sure appreciate your support and promotion. ;-)
When you install a Linux distribution like Ubuntu, it leaves Windows untouched and offers a dual-boot option.
Linux can work with all sorts of file systems, but Windows cannot work with Linux file systems.
Open Office can work with M$-Office files, but not vice versa.
So it is easy to try Linux and, of course, it is free. You can always go back.
If this is too much commitment for you, you can use live-CDs such as Knoppix.
OK, you might have to enter "knoppix nopcmcia". When this is too much for you, think twice about building a UAV for fun.
I am the author of the Paparazzi boot-CD-howto and therefore I am the author of the line quoted above.
I do not know why you quoted this sentence and I am not sure whether getting quoted by you is an honor or a flame. If the latter, I do not know if it is me who got flamed, or Paparazzi, or Linux, or altogether.
In your "land"-metaphor, I am a tourist in the Paparazzi land. So the way I talk is probably not the way they talk. My aim was to help other tourists on the way from the airport to the hotel. The aim was also, as you found out, to warn them.
Did you read the whole text? Probably you would have found other sentences which you would have liked a lot more, like "This is as far as I got with trial and error".
And there is some more warnings and disclaimers in the WIKI, so it is made very obvious that using Paparazzi is not easy. The aren't trying to sell you anything, and that makes me feel comfortable.
I am playing around with the Paparazzi simulator and I have not yet decided if I will do much more.
Possibly the ArduPilot is the better option for me, who knows.
Developers love open source. If you want developers go with open source. Open source does no mean only Linux. It can mean Windows, Linux and Mac.
Open source can be easy to use and install. e.g. Firefox in Windows. e.g. Firefox under Ubuntu. Ubuntu is a good Linux distribution for beginners and developers. Like all open source distributions it has problems for intermediate users (e.g. I-phone / I-Tunes ).
Paparazzi is complex under the hood. It been produced by academics that are in the business of learning - e.g. C, Perl and OCAML are some of the languages being used.
Paparazzi under ubuntu 8.04 installs with a few clicks of the mouse.
The quality of learning in open source communities is generally much higher than in the windows communities - because all the code is open for inspection, copying and re-use. That is why developers love it. So if you want people to learn - go with open.
Comments
Thanks for the comment (and congratulations--we're delighted) and I do take your point. I think Paparazzi is an amazing accomplishment, and I have one. The language I'm struggling with is not English but Linux. Maybe I'm just not smart enough, but I've been trying to get Linux to run properly on two laptops over three years, and I still can't get simple things like bluetooth working. So please excuse my frustration: it's not with your team, but with Linux on the desktop (we use it fine on our servers).
first of all, I have the honor of being (at least one of) the first to congratulate to you for your new president. The world kept fingers crossed and we all hope that the world will become a somewhat better place to live in.
The Paparazzi people do something to help making UAVs available to "regular people" which you have underestimated, or, probably not even noticed:
In the Paparazzi land, the way they talk is YOUR language. So YOU should be the last to complain.
Martin
You may be reading a bit too much into this thread. My point is only that most of our users use Windows or Mac on the desktop, Forcing people to install and learn Linux before they can use Paparazzi is just one more hurdle, and I suspect it's discouraged some people from trying what it otherwise a great autopilot. What we love about Arduino is that it's cross-platform, so people can use the version that's most comfortable for them.
Excellent point, and I agree. Would you like to take the lead? I'd be very happy to start with a beginner's guide to considering if Paparazzi is right for you.
Chris, that is an overblown issue. I think anyone who has ever installed windows on a laptop will know that the device driver issue is a larger problem for windows than for Linux. If you install windows on a laptop, you will probably have minimal graphics, no sound, no wireless, and no wired ethernet. Your best bet at that point would be to boot the laptop using knoppix so you can get online to download drivers for windows(which can often be a multi hour hunt in itself).
I think that Linux is not the major hurdle for using paparazzi. For me, the largest hurdle was learning RC planes. That was at least as hard as navigating an unfamiliar OS.
The point is that paparazzi is the most powerful and most accessible open source autopilot out there. The paparazzi project is a perfect candidate for DIY DRONES. Yes it is hard, but that is partially due to its power. But any autopilot is going to be hard. I understand your wish for an easy entry point for people who are looking to get into UAVs as a hobby, and I am a huge fan of the arduino based autopilots. However, I think that paparazzi is also a nice fit for DIY DRONES, since some of us will have enough technical skill to take advantage of paparazzi.
Thanks for the comment. My post was a relatively light-heated comment, but it was after watching many months of people struggling to get Paparazzi working. I know that some people have no trouble, and Linux (especially Ubuntu), is getting easier to use, but device driver problem still continue to bedevil many of us. Also, the configuration process for Paparazzi is still beyond the ability of most non-technical people.
I know Paparazzi is not really intended for non-technical people, and I know that your own work, in particular, is making it much easier to use (and for that thank you!), but our use of beginner-friendly environment such as Arduino and Basic Stamp is intended to make DIY autopilots accessible to an much less technically savvy audience. As much as I admire Paparazzi, I think it's requirement that everyone be using Linux is a serious limitation.
Which skills do you need for ArduPilot or for the Basic Stamp autopilot?
All from your list except Linux, I guess. Linux is not the most complicated thing on the list, I guess again.
I had tried Linux years ago and had given up. Therefore I can understand resentments against Linux. To try the Paparazzi software, I installed the current version of Ubuntu (8.04). Voila, everything works without any tricks or tweaks!
Installing Linux has been "developer's" stuff long ago, but now it is very much like installing Windows. Need some other software? Just get it from the repositories, it's a breeze.
You do not need to understand the packet system, you just use it. It does wonderful things for you, compared to Windows programs which might mess up your DLL's and your registry and leave you in deep sh...
It has often been claimed that Linux is as easy as Windows for everyday user. This was definitely not true in the past, but now I tend to agree. Hardy Heron for president!
Using Microsoft products is easy. They give it to schools so kids grow up with it. You can hardly avoid buying it when you buy a computer. Well, the people in Redmond can use any extra dollar they can get. They sure appreciate your support and promotion. ;-)
When you install a Linux distribution like Ubuntu, it leaves Windows untouched and offers a dual-boot option.
Linux can work with all sorts of file systems, but Windows cannot work with Linux file systems.
Open Office can work with M$-Office files, but not vice versa.
So it is easy to try Linux and, of course, it is free. You can always go back.
If this is too much commitment for you, you can use live-CDs such as Knoppix.
OK, you might have to enter "knoppix nopcmcia". When this is too much for you, think twice about building a UAV for fun.
I am the author of the Paparazzi boot-CD-howto and therefore I am the author of the line quoted above.
I do not know why you quoted this sentence and I am not sure whether getting quoted by you is an honor or a flame. If the latter, I do not know if it is me who got flamed, or Paparazzi, or Linux, or altogether.
In your "land"-metaphor, I am a tourist in the Paparazzi land. So the way I talk is probably not the way they talk. My aim was to help other tourists on the way from the airport to the hotel. The aim was also, as you found out, to warn them.
Did you read the whole text? Probably you would have found other sentences which you would have liked a lot more, like "This is as far as I got with trial and error".
And there is some more warnings and disclaimers in the WIKI, so it is made very obvious that using Paparazzi is not easy. The aren't trying to sell you anything, and that makes me feel comfortable.
I am playing around with the Paparazzi simulator and I have not yet decided if I will do much more.
Possibly the ArduPilot is the better option for me, who knows.
Open source can be easy to use and install. e.g. Firefox in Windows. e.g. Firefox under Ubuntu. Ubuntu is a good Linux distribution for beginners and developers. Like all open source distributions it has problems for intermediate users (e.g. I-phone / I-Tunes ).
Paparazzi is complex under the hood. It been produced by academics that are in the business of learning - e.g. C, Perl and OCAML are some of the languages being used.
Paparazzi under ubuntu 8.04 installs with a few clicks of the mouse.
The quality of learning in open source communities is generally much higher than in the windows communities - because all the code is open for inspection, copying and re-use. That is why developers love it. So if you want people to learn - go with open.
P.S.
An example of learning ...
http://www.navair.navy.mil/pma263/seafarers/journal/journal2008/She...
-
1
-
2
-
3
of 3 Next