Hi there,
I have been doing some IRIS+ based measurements of atmospheric temperature profiles and
submitted a research proposal to the National Forest Service to fly above a site on NFS land.
Here is the response:
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Unless you're able to point us toward FAA regs that indicate your proposed use would fall into the model aircraft (hobby/recreation) category, or produce a FAA certificate for Civil UAS use we won't be able to move forward with this aspect of your request.
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I pointed out that this is not a commercial enterprise, we are not charging or making money, off of this and it is done during daylight,line of sight, and below 400" AGL
Anyone here that can help me ?
Thanks for reading this
Dan
Replies
Hi Guys,
First, NFS - National Forest Service is the same as US Forest Service, it is in common use and is in fact an abreviation used by the USFS itself.
Second current interpretation of the Wilderness use is that drones are NOT permitted.
Please see this circular which clarifies their interpretation to exclude all kinds of powered drones.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/okawen/specialplaces/?cid=stelprdb540...
and as for National Forests, please see this article or Google it:
http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/05/dont-take-a-drone-to-a-nation...
As it currently is they are not legal in the 58 odd US National Forests.
I do know that the NFS (USFS) does permit individual forest supervisors to submit their own requests for specific "exceptions".
I am sure that as time goes on a more favorable set of circumstances can be generated for individual enterprises that have merit.
As it is now however, lots of luck.
And as for the hobby thing, the FAA has often taken a stance of what is and what is not commercial - hobby that seems hard to justify.
Their concept has been that anything that has not been purely for recreation is commercial.
It is important to understand that what the FAA is seeking to regulate is actually commercial uses, but taking the stance that anything not purely recreational is commercial is ludicrous.
There are a lots of endeavors that do not result in any commerce (exchange of funds) and are in fact by every definition everywhere else in the world not commercial that the FAA has decided to label commercial because they are not strictly recreational.
Volunteer search and rescue or fire spotters or environmental whistle blowers come under this category as does unpaid free photo and video journalism.
No doubt looking for plant diseases will be viewed the same way, basically, they have decided anything useful is commercial.
The FAA has a considerable dispute with the dictionary relating to many things, but this is the worst example.
Best Regards,
Gary
Please see Joe R.'s response below. National Parks are not National Forests. The National Forest policy is detailed in Joe's post and states pretty clearly that the USFS does not (and cannot) prohibit UAVs in National Forests. The article you linked to is just plain wrong.
You had me worried there for a minute, I've probably racked up 50-to-life with your scenario.
Thank you for your thoughts
We must maintain good relations with our USFS neighbors. Like me, they are doing their jobs under sometimes challenging circumstances. The drone thing is new, and as I said before we must try to minimize antibody response. My effort is to understand how to be most effective in doing so.
This is a opportunity to understand the challenge, and respond to make progress in supporting small budget science using drone and related technology.
For example I have a student that would like to use the IRIS or a custom platform. we all may benefit from student efforts.
Yours in science
Dan
Looks like the complex.com article linked above is not entirely correct. They are confusing National Forests with National Parks.
National Parks - No fly zone, with minor exceptions.
USFS Wilderness Areas - No taking off or landing. Standard aircraft must fly above 2000', while FAA states that model aircraft flights must be at or below 400'. Net result appears to be a no fly zone. Wilderness areas differ from standard USFS National Forests.
USFS National Forests - FAA has authority over the airspace, follow all applicable rules and safety procedures—details from their website are below. This map shows the boundaries for Forest Service, National Park Service, as well as land managed by Bureau of Land Management, and the Fish and Wildlife Service. www.wilderness.net/map
Hobby or Recreational Use of UAS on National Forest System Lands
http://www.fs.fed.us/science-technology/fire/unmanned-aircraft-systems
The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has regulatory authority over all airspace, including recreational use of airspace by model aircraft (See FAA Advisory Circular 91-57). The U.S. Forest Service does not have the authority to establish any additional regulations regarding where UAS can or can’t be flown.
Individuals and organizations that fly UAS on National Forest System lands must follow FAA guidance – FAA guidance stipulates that UAS not interfere with manned aircraft, be flown within sight of the operator and be operated only for hobby or recreational purposes. The FAA also requires model aircraft operators flying UAS within five miles of an airport to notify the airport operator and air traffic control tower. The FAA’s model aircraft provision apply only to hobby or recreation operations and do not authorize the use of model aircraft for commercial operations. For more information, watch the “Know Before You Fly” video and visit the Know Before You Fly Website at http://www.knowbeforeyoufly.org/
Individuals and organizations that fly UAS for hobby or recreational purposes may not operate them in areas of National Forest System lands that have Temporary Flight Restrictions (TFRs) in place, such as wildfires, without prior approval from the U.S. Forest Service.
The FAA provides guidance on “Flights Over Charted U.S. Wildlife Refuges, Parks, and Forest Service Areas”. Per this guidance, federal laws prohibit certain types of flight activity and/or provide altitude restrictions over “designated Forest Service Areas.” UAS are considered to be "mechanized” equipment and cannot take off and land in designated Wilderness Areas on National Forest System lands.
Individuals or organizations that do not comply with FAA guidance in flying UAS on National Forest System lands will be reported to the FAA.
"As it currently is they are not *legal* in the 58 odd US National Forests."
When you say they are not "legal" that says to me that a law was voted on and passed by congress. I make the distinction, because it is my understanding that this has not happened (again I have not read the links you posted). So far the rules for National Parks, etc are just a policy that has been decided upon by senior officials in the relevant agencies. As such they have complete discretion to make exceptions. If it were LAW, they would have no discretion.
If I am correct, then there is no reason why a Researcher from Caltech should not be given full consideration. It's just a matter of cutting through the bureaucrats (who admittedly do treat their rules and regulations as if they were law). If you can get past these folks, to someone senior enough, with enough common sense, you might have a chance.
Hi Erik,
Yes you are right, I was not using the term legal to indicate a law passed by Congress, it is, indeed a policy - regulation issued by the Forest Service leadership, but their "policies - regulations" do have the force of law.
If you do not follow their policy, you can be legally fined an amount to be determined by them and your equipment can be confiscated.
This has in fact happened several times already and the violators have lost in court when contesting it (including the unfortunate sot who dumped his Phantom in Yosemite's best known Geothermal pool).
And yes, from what I have read, individual forest service supervisors can request and the central office can issue individual exemptions.
So far to my understanding this has not happened.
Unfortunately, at this point, common sense seems to be in somewhat short supply.
Best Regards,
Gary
Well, as frustrating as the media hype and official *over*reaction is, it is also fascinating to watch and be a part of (tangentially). We live in interesting times. I wish the best of luck to Dan.
Well, if the science is the priority then you should consider a balloon. Obviously I'm not referring to party balloons if anyone is wondering ;-). Since you are not looking to take measurements above 400 feet, a tethered balloon is doable. Dealing with wind will be an issue, but balloons are less likely to be frowned upon.
Setting that aside, it sounds like you have run up against a bureaucrat over zealously applying a policy (not a law). Your only real option is to go above his head. Caltech has a world wide reputation. If a researcher from Caltech has a legitimate reason to take scientific measurements with a drone, it should be given all due consideration. Again, we are talking about the NFS making an exception to a policy, not a federal or state law.
Clearly the policy was put in place to stop civilian idiots from flying their drones around in annoying and dangerous ways, not to prevent legitimate scientific research. You are not a civilian. You are a researcher with a prestigious institution. You may want to speak to someone from the administration at Caltech to explain your situation. They may have more luck reaching out to someone senior at the NFS who can see the "forrest from the trees" and cut through the red tape to allow you to conduct your research.
http://lindholm.jp/chpro_bal.html
http://www.noaa.inel.gov/capabilities/smartballoon/smartballoon.htm
Thanks Erik,
Yes I have used kites and balloons in the past.
My application requires sampling different areas relative to wind direction and runs along a mountain ridge.
Kind of difficult with a tethered system, with enough directional thrust one could do some maneuvering.
Makes me wonder if one could get by with a tethered drone / Drone assisted balloon ?
Still, a drone is a drone, yet at parks; all dogs on a leash...
The wind is accelerated on a ridge making exact placement difficult not to mention the wind shear. I try for 3 meter or better spatial resolution.
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