"Looks like i found the page http://code.google.com/p/arducopter/wiki/AC2_Tweaks , mentions where to set pid settings, but there are so many settings, and they seem to be trial and error, might be hard to have a stable quad without a arducopter frame"

"Hi, i  wanted to ask a newbie question.  I have been looking into getting an APM 2 and my own quad copter frame + motors+esc from ebay or hobby king for cheap and put it together with a tx/rx.  I did not think about getting the arducopter frame…"