From the autopilot's easiest, most newbie task: inserting the boot CD:
"On some laptops, you have to enter "knoppix nopcmcia", otherwise it hangs."
In Paparazzi land, that's actually the way they talk. You have been warned.
Chris, you've opened-up the can-o-worms with this one! No-one's ever going to agree on the Windows / Linux / Mac debate, so we might as well stop now.
As far as I'm concerned; the issue being raised is one of 'customer compatibility' - if the technologies being used are - or seem to be - too complicated for the customer, then the product has a reduced market. Paparazzi has reduced it's market (but they're probably happy with that, and they're free to choose).
Meanwhile, I'm happy to stick with Windows (because I don't have time to learn Linux, and I already know it's limitations) and I plan to use the Parallax Propeller, because it's one cool chip that's simple to programme :-)
Thanks for the thoughtful note and reasonable position. One of the reasons we latched on to Arduino is very much that it's cross-platform--Linux, Windows and Mac--but still open source. They worked hard to make it easy to use on all three platforms, and although there is nothing new about the AVR chip at the core, that ease of use is why it's taken off so quickly.
That's the sort of bridge between the mainstream and the developers that I'd like to see us pursue with UAVs.
The point of this site is, initially, to do exactly what you say: "If you want make the work being done on Paparazzi or similar powerful open source projects more accessible, you might want to think about ways to help "amateurs" navigate the developers' world."
But the long term goal is the reverse: help developers navigate the amateur's world, which is to find ways to make aerial robotics so simple and cheap that anyone can do it. There's a reason why we started with Lego Mindstorms, and that continues to be a model of powerful simplicity.
If I was a VC, I'd fund a project to port Paparazzi to Windows in a simplified form, not because I wanted to sell software, but because I wanted to sell more hardware to a larger audience, beyond the hard-core geeks. That's what we're going to be doing with ArduPilot and BlimpDuino--focusing on the bottom end, both in terms of cost and technical skills, on the bet that there are a lot of people there, invisible because the barrier to entry is too high. Which was the point of my original post in this thread.
I like to keep both options open.
I have been full time on linux for over 8 years now and I am a professional systems developer.
I run Windows when I have to.
I like the arduino development environment enormously under Linux but have not managed to make it work under Windows. (not that I tried hard ).
I was among the first customers to buy Labview under Linux many years ago.
In some ways Linux (ubuntu in particular) can be very easy to use.
My point is that linux can be fun to use once you get past the initial stages.
Let's all get some perspective. This isn't PhD Robotics.com, it's a site for amateurs. The whole point of what we're trying to do is to democratize aerial robotics so regular folks can do it.
You smart developer types may be able to handle Linux, but regular people don't want to. Whatever you may think of Windows or the Mac, they're what regular people use. Any project that insists on being Linux only is, by definition, not for for them.
That may be fine with the Paparazzi folks, but we have hopes of reaching a broader audience here.
The killer for Linux is lack of power management on virually all laptops. It has other issues, like its tendancy to remap USB serial ports whenever it feels like it, the tendancy to suddenly tie up the disk running CRON jobs, and the lack of consistent behaviour across Linux derivatives.
The main advantage with Linux is it's efficient and much more customizable. You're basically running software on the silicon. For a ground based autopilot, the main fear with Windows is an advertisement popping up at the moment of truth. Oh yeah, they're not advertisements. They're "upgrade notices".
hi Chris,
Miraterre and other UAV companies supplying US military and other projects would tend to disagree with you Chris. in fact paparazzi craft were in the front of the swarm at MAV07 and others. And given the software needs of pararazzi I would NOT be looking at it in windows xp or vista anytime soon(you DONT want a system lockup while your UAV is in the air would you or the legal liability for same(hint look at the windows EULA)).
As for me I dont like ubuntu very much but as pararazzi runs on it I use it and simply adapt, you may want to consider the same .
kind regards
gwen
ps guess that makes me one of the lunatic fringe(already a propeller head)!!
"For me, life is too short to deal with Linux on the desktop"
We could debate for days on this one. I have been using Linux on the desktop nearly exclusively for more than a year now. For me, the pains in the beginning were very similar to the problems I experienced when I first started to use windows.
For me, the ease of system administration is the best thing. Every program is updated by synaptic, so it eliminates the constant nagging that one experiences with windows with a half dozen programs running system tray apps that beg for updates. I also do not have to deal with viruses or spyware. My biggest problem is MS office documents that do not play well with open office.
My father also got a new computer with vista on it, and he was complaining that he could not do anything with it. In addition, the very first program he downloaded was malware masquerading as an anti virus program. So I installed Linux for him, and configured all the eye candy. He loves it, and he can do what he needs without having to buy any software. His computer skills were weak to begin with, so to him Windows and Linux are equally difficult.
"neither enough support for the guys buying commerical systems or easy enough for us low-end guys"
I think that a Windows version of paparazzi would not change this, since the biggest hurdles (IMHO) are the systems integration, tuning, and configuration of the autopilot which are OS independent issues.
I think the decision to make Paparazzi Linux-only pretty much relegated it to fringe acceptance, with neither enough support for the guys buying commerical systems or easy enough for us low-end guys. As far as I can tell it's only really been adopted broadly by universities, which is a shame given how powerful the autopilot is.
I think that's is an opportunity for someone to port it to Windows and create a plug-and-play version, even commercially.
For me, life is too short to deal with Linux on the desktop (although we use it extensively on the server).
I don't think that is a fair statement. You are mentioning a Knoppix issue, not a paparazzi one.
I think paparazzi is good stuff, but it is far from easy. You are right about that.
I have written a document about the minimum skills needed for success with paparazzi:
Computer
Linux
Able to install and configure Linux
Familiar with Ubuntu Linux
Understand package management in Ubuntu Linux Programming
Experience with C
Able to compile software in Linux environment
Can program embedded systems
Know how to find the appropriate resources for support (forums, mailing lists, wikis, etc.)
Radio Control Aircraft
Be able to take off and land with confidence
Be able to fly simple patterns
Understand model aircraft setup
Be able to make simple repairs to model aircraft
Be familiar with tools and techniques used for model aircraft
Understand the care and usage of lithium polymer batteries
Be a member of the Academy of Model Aeronautics (For access to certain flying fields)
Electronic
Familiar with embedded systems
Know how to interface electronic components to micro controllers
Be able to locate, read, and understand data sheets
Know how to troubleshoot electronic systems
Understand signal timing
Be able to solder small components and wires
Be able to fabricate wiring harness
Be able to read schematics
Control Theory
Understand PID control
General
Able to learn without guidance
Strong ability to troubleshoot systems
Comments
As far as I'm concerned; the issue being raised is one of 'customer compatibility' - if the technologies being used are - or seem to be - too complicated for the customer, then the product has a reduced market. Paparazzi has reduced it's market (but they're probably happy with that, and they're free to choose).
Meanwhile, I'm happy to stick with Windows (because I don't have time to learn Linux, and I already know it's limitations) and I plan to use the Parallax Propeller, because it's one cool chip that's simple to programme :-)
That's the sort of bridge between the mainstream and the developers that I'd like to see us pursue with UAVs.
The point of this site is, initially, to do exactly what you say: "If you want make the work being done on Paparazzi or similar powerful open source projects more accessible, you might want to think about ways to help "amateurs" navigate the developers' world."
But the long term goal is the reverse: help developers navigate the amateur's world, which is to find ways to make aerial robotics so simple and cheap that anyone can do it. There's a reason why we started with Lego Mindstorms, and that continues to be a model of powerful simplicity.
If I was a VC, I'd fund a project to port Paparazzi to Windows in a simplified form, not because I wanted to sell software, but because I wanted to sell more hardware to a larger audience, beyond the hard-core geeks. That's what we're going to be doing with ArduPilot and BlimpDuino--focusing on the bottom end, both in terms of cost and technical skills, on the bet that there are a lot of people there, invisible because the barrier to entry is too high. Which was the point of my original post in this thread.
I like to keep both options open.
I have been full time on linux for over 8 years now and I am a professional systems developer.
I run Windows when I have to.
I like the arduino development environment enormously under Linux but have not managed to make it work under Windows. (not that I tried hard ).
I was among the first customers to buy Labview under Linux many years ago.
In some ways Linux (ubuntu in particular) can be very easy to use.
My point is that linux can be fun to use once you get past the initial stages.
You smart developer types may be able to handle Linux, but regular people don't want to. Whatever you may think of Windows or the Mac, they're what regular people use. Any project that insists on being Linux only is, by definition, not for for them.
That may be fine with the Paparazzi folks, but we have hopes of reaching a broader audience here.
The main advantage with Linux is it's efficient and much more customizable. You're basically running software on the silicon. For a ground based autopilot, the main fear with Windows is an advertisement popping up at the moment of truth. Oh yeah, they're not advertisements. They're "upgrade notices".
Miraterre and other UAV companies supplying US military and other projects would tend to disagree with you Chris. in fact paparazzi craft were in the front of the swarm at MAV07 and others. And given the software needs of pararazzi I would NOT be looking at it in windows xp or vista anytime soon(you DONT want a system lockup while your UAV is in the air would you or the legal liability for same(hint look at the windows EULA)).
As for me I dont like ubuntu very much but as pararazzi runs on it I use it and simply adapt, you may want to consider the same .
kind regards
gwen
ps guess that makes me one of the lunatic fringe(already a propeller head)!!
We could debate for days on this one. I have been using Linux on the desktop nearly exclusively for more than a year now. For me, the pains in the beginning were very similar to the problems I experienced when I first started to use windows.
For me, the ease of system administration is the best thing. Every program is updated by synaptic, so it eliminates the constant nagging that one experiences with windows with a half dozen programs running system tray apps that beg for updates. I also do not have to deal with viruses or spyware. My biggest problem is MS office documents that do not play well with open office.
My father also got a new computer with vista on it, and he was complaining that he could not do anything with it. In addition, the very first program he downloaded was malware masquerading as an anti virus program. So I installed Linux for him, and configured all the eye candy. He loves it, and he can do what he needs without having to buy any software. His computer skills were weak to begin with, so to him Windows and Linux are equally difficult.
"neither enough support for the guys buying commerical systems or easy enough for us low-end guys"
I think that a Windows version of paparazzi would not change this, since the biggest hurdles (IMHO) are the systems integration, tuning, and configuration of the autopilot which are OS independent issues.
I think that's is an opportunity for someone to port it to Windows and create a plug-and-play version, even commercially.
For me, life is too short to deal with Linux on the desktop (although we use it extensively on the server).
I think paparazzi is good stuff, but it is far from easy. You are right about that.
I have written a document about the minimum skills needed for success with paparazzi:
Computer
Linux
Able to install and configure Linux
Familiar with Ubuntu Linux
Understand package management in Ubuntu Linux
Programming
Experience with C
Able to compile software in Linux environment
Can program embedded systems
Know how to find the appropriate resources for support (forums, mailing lists, wikis, etc.)
Radio Control Aircraft
Be able to take off and land with confidence
Be able to fly simple patterns
Understand model aircraft setup
Be able to make simple repairs to model aircraft
Be familiar with tools and techniques used for model aircraft
Understand the care and usage of lithium polymer batteries
Be a member of the Academy of Model Aeronautics (For access to certain flying fields)
Electronic
Familiar with embedded systems
Know how to interface electronic components to micro controllers
Be able to locate, read, and understand data sheets
Know how to troubleshoot electronic systems
Understand signal timing
Be able to solder small components and wires
Be able to fabricate wiring harness
Be able to read schematics
Control Theory
Understand PID control
General
Able to learn without guidance
Strong ability to troubleshoot systems
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