I wanted to bring attention to the work that Tridge and the rest of the CUAV team have done to demonstrate the possibility of flying a Helicopter with a standard FBL controller handling the rate control duties. They have been testing gas powered helicopter for next round of the Outback Challenge which will require a long-range VTOL aircraft. Helicopters are a natural target for this mission of course.
Several of the CUAV team are experienced RC helicopter pilots, but not as familiar with installing a Pixhawk on a helicopter which can be difficult, especially in the case of gas engine helis. As such, they were more comfortable having a normal Flybarless Controller handling rate control. In this case, the Skookum Robotics 540. Tridge has made changes to the code which allow for a pure control pass-through from the RC Rx, through the Pixhawk, and straight to the FBL controller. This pass-through occurs in Acro mode, whereby the Pixhawk running ArduCopter has no effect on the flight control, so even if the Pixhawk should have a major AHRS/EKF failure, the helicopter is still controllable.
Of course, the Pixhawk is capable of controlling a Helicopter without any FBL system, and this is the most common arrangement. But the possibility of running an FBL controller in series with the Pixhawk helps lower the barrier to entry for many existing RC Helicopter pilots. And also offers helicopters similar failsafe-function to airplanes, where they can survive the loss of the autopilot.
Comments
@ Guy
I can agree that other then fire risks are more expedient to deal with, also that "lipo" fires are more common because of extensive use. But not all batteries can burn, or explode like lipos. Like the LiFePo4 batteries I showed.
Accordingly I would not place fuel and batteries in general in the same category. Lifepo4 are significantly less risk and are a good match to compete for the range that typically uses petrol ie less than 1C discharge.
I know the statement was specific to lipo and gasoline, but even there I doubt their potential fire risks are the same.
As for ignition sources there are plenty of electrical components with enough potential from the control batteries that need to be carried as well. The question is where it fails/ignites/explodes. Exhaust gas temperatures easily exceed 280C, but I'd say most ignition is inhibited by not being in the right fuel:air ratio. Unlike methane as a gas that is fleeting, any liquid gasoline creates ignitable vapour at the right ratios for ignition.
Regardless of the likelihood, the result of ignition with fuel is however significantly worse as the consequence of a few 100ml of fuel can be catastrophic (injury, death, property destruction). The same cannot be said for for the consequence of a lipo failing directly.
But before establishing a accurate risk matrix for comparison, a lot more data and experimentation would need to be done. I'm currently unaware of any testing to support the premise that gasoline is safer than lipo, and would welcome some evidence to support the idea.
-
@John
A persons perspective is not indicative of the facts! |-)
Accordingly, unless tested and experimentally shown there are still risks even if people know how to deal with them, if at all they can. A gasoline aircraft is typically used for long range work, meaning it is also "out of range" of the operator to readily put it out, should it burst into flames. That application increases the risk.
Hi,
Is there any difference (except simple wiring) compared to using the RCout channels of the Pixhawk as input for the FBL unit (refresh rate, fail safe, flight performance, etc.)?
You can always find people to tell you what is more dangerous. It's the type of aircraft or power source they are least familiar with. There's some truth to that because it is for them. It doesn't always hold for others though. Sure you can come up with some absolutes like the power density of gasoline is greater than any lipo of similar volume, but I'd say someone used to handling gasoline is less at risk than a person dealing with lipos for the first time. Nothing within the realm of normal RC craft is particularly dangerous if you have a bit of experience with it.
...sorry...I meant "how well" does the controller handle vibes coming from the gas motor?
Great effort guys.
@Tridge, well how does the controller handle vibes coming from the gas motor? How do you monitor its performance?
One thing I forgot to mention: Use LiFePO4 batteries if there's a fire risk issue, they don't burn well at all and have similar performance for long range:
Hey Rob buddy
"There's nothing scary about gas. Gasoline is safer than LiPo batteries."
Sorry but that statement is factually wrong! ;-)
Fuel and then Dynamite
https://youtu.be/83BinHEbvvQ?t=217
Lipo explosion after impact (being wacked by a stick!):
https://youtu.be/gz3hCqjk4yc?t=50
A 18650 shorted explosion after a few minutes (release of internal cell pressure build up)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzEHsJVZhA
I know which one I'd rather be next to... ;-)
Without wanting to detract from the efforts and subject of this post I'd like to say I don't agree with the perceived risk of fuel in comparison to batteries.
Your statements purporting the position that the likelihood of a lipo failure is higher than gas would need to be evidenced a bit further. Asking ad-hoc at a airfield might not yield accurate results. Gas is now typically less common than lipos on airfields, so one would expect the likelihood of lipo fire to be higher lipos overall. However, the likelihood of occurrence has no impact of the actual risk consequences, if comparing the risk consequences of two energy storage types directly, which is what is required to assess the individual risks of the different platforms.
Typically any type of fire is safe if it can be contained. Fire fighters therefore always seek containment first, then extinguish the fire.
Reasons why fuel is more dangerous than electric propulsion (at least in my opinion!)
Overall, from a risk perspective, helis's have there own set of other risks we have discussed elsewhere and as Chris pointed out (blade inertia etc) but from a fuel risk perspective that applies to all forms of fuel powered aircraft including airplanes, helis or hybrid quads, I'd prefer to use an electric one if the range allows. Personally I've had a few close run ins with just "a cup of fuel", with friends giving themselves third degree burns and months in hospital, from which I've learnt to respect the raw power of fuel. I can't see that happening from my experience with lipo failures (I've had a few) I'm not scared as such, but fear is a good self-preservation technique! ;-)
Regards
Wow, a flashback to the 1990s. Gas helis were pretty much the only rotary-wing choice then.
Heli autopilots have always had pass-through modes. It's almost a must for someone who flies helis manually as they need to be able to revert quickly to a comfortable mode if the autopilot does something unexpected. It's something that fixed-wing pilots and those who only fly more automated systems often don't get because the margin for error with a heli is so much less.
It is kind of interesting what "manual" flight control has become. If you don't like what your "full" autopilot is doing you can switch to a pass through mode which uses a simpler autopilot (OK, stabilization system). The days of "manual" control being the ability to only move control surfaces based on sight and sound are pretty much gone.
@Mark, the stm32 IO co-processor handles SBUS output, so if that fails then the FBL would be starved of input and the vehicle would crash
For our OBC heli the petrol ignition would also cut however, as the pulses to the PWM ignition switch would stop, so the heli would be safe as the blades will lose energy quite quickly.
@AndrewTridgell I was more referring to the control system redundancy, as I am unsure of what happens if the co-processor on the Pixhawk fails.
-
1
-
2
-
3
-
4
-
5
of 5 Next