Chris might pull this post down fast when he sees it!!

I am getting increasingly angry at the attitude of UNAV towards Ardupilot, most people know I don't use an Ardupilot, I'm not clever enough to put one together, but I like the project.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1030817&page=19

I will let you guys read and decide.

Views: 421


Admin
Comment by Morli on November 30, 2009 at 4:26am
I am surprised to see people comparing the two different perspective of users involved in buying and using with no pain vs DiyDrone / build it your self types , Unav and other commercial manufacturers have nothing to fear unless they consider each of us in Diydrones forum members to be potentical custumer or competition !!? :))
To those opposed to diydrones / similar hobbiest UAV enthusiast to be Pain In Air( did i just coin new terminology?! :(=) , this is forum of similar minded people who believe in " No pain , No Gain" , soif I wanted a UAV system that is " Ready to Fly ,with all software/ firmware loaded , tested blaw blaw , i would have bought a ready made stuff that does all this, please spare me/us with techno pro and cons of commercial off the shelf controllers, I am here and involved with Diydrones of my own accord and free will, and I enjoy building breaking and fixing things, on the way enjoy learning the technology.

T3
Comment by Krzysztof Bosak on November 30, 2009 at 9:21am
'Unav and other commercial manufacturers have nothing to fear unless they consider each of us in Diydrones forum members to be potentical custumer or competition'

There is one threat for companies coming from amateurs.
This is the scenario: claim you can do complex system for pennies,
undermine the positions of those who really did the effort and can count it,
then just say it is not feasible withing budget and raise the price again.
Same as marketing that you can make Ardupilot for 25, 50, 100USD.
This is like making the others look like the monsters of greed,
while declaring the work of software developer is worth NULL,
while not necessarily leading to the creation of competitive product in the long term.

All this has one effect: creates artificially crafted virtual reference point for price,
that is used to dramatically weaken the public perception or the makers of complex electronics,
without even making the makers of cheap solutions incredibly rich. At the end there is no progress, as the advance of open source is usually quickly swamped by absence of professional regression testing and all the things nobody would do for free. Therefore, if the development of open source project is not really matched in pace with the pack of companies supporting it (for its own economic reasons), usually wanders into complexity black hole. On the other hand, it is hard to contribute to a project whose final, non-regressing advantage is low price.
So there is a thin line between claiming progress and declaring naive target price (which is equivalent to making false effort estimation). If the hobbyists cannot estimate true effort of the projects they are starting, this is even more true for potential clients of bigger companies. Therefore the next thing after imposing export ban is to create perception that the work on autopilots is almost worthless, to make sure that US will start losing the UAV race one day.

Moderator
Comment by Sgt Ric on November 30, 2009 at 2:11pm
@Krzysz, I often wonder about your committment to the DIY community.

We see that you are working on a commercial product, and with your background, I am sure you will do well.
But what I don't know is what this site can do for you?
You obviously have the engineering and hardware side of the business taken care of and are ahead of many of us technologically, but other than gaining access to prospective customers of your company, why are you here?
From your threads, I cannot see that you are backing the amateur side of the hobby or it's members.

If Chris starts out to experiment with the developing technologies and sets a goal of sub $100 AP for education and the hobbiest alike, who can critizise him for going ahead and doing just that?

I cannot see that Chris had any intention of developing an aerospace industry to compete with Boeing, UNAV, or your AerialRobotics.

This site is fantastic for those amateur hobbiests and R/C flyers how want to learn and try to build something our selves, and have fun sharing in a community. Yes, we do get alot of kids looking for off the shelf "Toys", but they soon see thats not what DIYDrones is about.
(maybe we'll send them your way?)

Moderator
Comment by Sgt Ric on November 30, 2009 at 2:18pm
Perhaps I simply misunderstand your intentions within your recent comments.
Comment by brakar on November 30, 2009 at 3:11pm
@Sgt Ric, the fact that Krzysz is actually making his own autopilots should explain why this forum is right in the bulls eye for him. Hence, I understand your question more in the line of who should be allowed here. That question can probably best be answered by others then him.

Developer
Comment by Jason Short on November 30, 2009 at 3:30pm
I'm glad Krzysztof is here and he has a point about professionalism vs. hobbies. I do design work as a profession. Anyone can do design and everyone should do it to some degree. But with professionalism, comes a reliable expectation. And that's value people will pay for. I think Krzysztof has a lot to gain by having UAVs go mainstream through Ardupilot.

T3
Comment by Krzysztof Bosak on November 30, 2009 at 3:38pm
'I think Krzysztof has a lot to gain by having UAVs go mainstream through Ardupilot.'
That's right and this is why I like contests even if I am far from winning them.

Admin
Comment by Morli on November 30, 2009 at 5:48pm
@ Bosak , Since you used my text as reference and I have few hours to kill, so here we go, :)) (, BTW I don't have spell checker in this system and so few typos here and there :)), and I don't have any gripe against any one) for the record
>>>There is one threat for companies coming from amateurs.
This is the scenario: claim?! you can do complex system! for pennies,undermine the positions of those who really did the effort and can count it, then just say it is not feasible withing budget and raise the price again. How many times has a Diydrones or any amateur /hobbiest company for that matter raised its price claiming " if you need ""complex"" system , pay us few K$ more More" ??!! No one I guess is here expecting Ardu or any hobby AP product to be any thing more than learn,fun,share,win race,laugh,feel satisfied to have atchived some thing more than a standard RC flying, In any case who gave any rights to anyone telling me that if I want to learn, use , have fun with UAV or technology , I need to go to this or that company alone , pay few thousands $ to just to figure out if the technology/product is suitable or no, meets my expectations or not, etc etc , still may only learn to use/fly uav , not the technology or inards of UAV????????? If so then every airline manufactrer should /will have gripe with aeromodellers, model plane/helli flyer who should actually buy a real plane from Professional plane maker to fly and have fun
Same as marketing that you can make Ardupilot for 25, 50, 100USD. I rather spend few 100$ & learn , have fun and even accept the disappointment that it does not meet my expectations or the product is no good!!! than spend few K to have the same experince.
This is like making the others look like the monsters of greed, while declaring the work of software developer is worth NULL, while not necessarily leading to the creation of competitive product in the long term. who is "others" & Since when did Monopoly create any better and competitive product any where in the world?? & Since when did "software developer" alone matters in UAV and being the only " professional" in UAV industry whos time/effort is nullified because hobbiest is undermining his effort? If so then what would airline industry , pilots gripe about when may be in next 100 or 200 years when passenger+ cargo transport might go UAV too? BTW IMHO Hobbiest is also professional from same or another field but wants to have fun and satisfaction in learning, sharing with other similar minded people.That is why it is called Open source. Unhappy of being software developer? choose another profession buddy.
Knowledge is not exlusive domain where only privy few "Professionals" get paid "High" to develop!! what ever.. while every one else needs to wait and spend few K to learn about it!!
All this has one effect: creates artificially crafted virtual reference point for price, who sets the value /price of product?? and what is real reference point for cost of any technology/product/knowledge ?
that is used to dramatically weaken the public perception or the makers of complex electronics, who is public?? and why is it complex??
without even making the makers of cheap solutions incredibly rich. There!, you have you answer, make it cheap and sell few thousand APs and become rich!
At the end there is no progress, as the advance of open source is usually quickly swamped by absence of professional regression testing and all the things nobody would do for free. u>You mean to say every one of hobbiest here is wasting his time buying hobby AP,building, writing their experince,sharing tips, tricks, issues, etc etc ?!! Therefore, if the development of open source project is not really matched in pace with the pack of companies supporting it (for its own economic reasons), usually wanders into complexity black hole. ?? :0
On the other hand, it is hard to contribute to a project whose final, non-regressing advantage is low price.
So there is a thin line between claiming progress and declaring naive target price (which is equivalent to making false effort estimation). How is price for a effort estimated?
If the hobbyists cannot estimate true effort of the projects they are starting, this is even more true for potential clients of bigger companies.b>??!! , Estimate? Why would a hobbiest estimate his project?! I thought hobby is for fun, take a break and some thing to take his mind off from daily chores.. in any case if it is big bite for a hobbiest to chew then hobbiest abandons his project and doesnot waste sleep and time over it, he moves on.>>
Therefore the next thing after imposing export ban is to create perception that the work on autopilots is almost worthless, to make sure that US will start losing the UAV race one day. Isn't this( open source forum) one way to defeat such ban or monopoly??why is US or any single country or entity alone privy to UAV technology and why is it a race?!! In any case what is your gripe? You are manufacterer of Complex Product who gets paid for " professional" development/ed product which is not winning any " race" any way. Am I to assume that since any professionally developed complex machine isn't winning any race, you are here to see why is it so?!! .
Did I miss some thing coz I did not see Ardu pilot in topper/winner list of T3 race?!!

Last but not least(for now) , how many of arduAP or any similar product is flying complex missions by mil or gov( who alone can afford few 100K$) any where in the world that is so much concern to a commercial company/ies well developed product by teams of very well paid professionals costing realistic price is loosing it marker too??? cheers

Moderator
Comment by Sgt Ric on November 30, 2009 at 6:07pm
Why are we having to justify the existence of our hobby or even DIYDrones?

This is another example of the corporate world attacking the worth of open-source, which is based on the resistance to such things as "bloatware".

To quote Opensource.org: "The promise of open source is better quality, higher reliability, more flexibility, lower cost, and an end to predatory vendor lock-in."

Corporate America does not have a copywrite on quality and innovation.

T3
Comment by Krzysztof Bosak on November 30, 2009 at 6:08pm
Morli, I would like to explain, but I am not sure I understand all of the phrases. Not that I wouldn't like to, but the altimeter I am working on needs some workarounds and no community on earth is going to solve this. In most cases your arguing is well thought and has many valid points...

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